{"id":1651,"date":"2019-01-28T20:43:09","date_gmt":"2019-01-28T20:43:09","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=1651"},"modified":"2025-04-21T15:02:52","modified_gmt":"2025-04-21T22:02:52","slug":"episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 28: Interview with Kathryn Minshew, Founder and CEO of The Muse"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe width=\"1400\" height=\"788\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/GqkbYcUBQnk?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-as-the-founder-ceo-of-a-company-serving-75-million-people-worldwide-kathryn-shares-her-biggest-leadership-lessons-around-trusting-your-gut\">As the founder + CEO of a company serving 75 million people worldwide, Kathryn shares her biggest leadership lessons around trusting your gut.<\/h4>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Every two weeks as part of The Heartbeat podcast, I <\/em><g class=\"gr_ gr_5 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Grammar multiReplace\" id=\"5\" data-gr-id=\"5\"><em>asks<\/em><\/g><em> one question to a founder, CEO, or business owner I respect. This week, I interviewed Kathryn Minshew, Founder + CEO of The Muse. Watch &amp; read what she has to say here\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/kmin\">Kathryn Minshew<\/a>&nbsp;is the Co-Founder and CEO of&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/themuse.com\/\">The Muse<\/a>, a company that helps over 75 million people around the world find jobs and get career advice. In our interview, she shares the importance of trusting your gut, developing that instinct, and her framework for decision-making.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Hey, everyone. I\u2019m\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/clairejlew\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Claire Lew<\/a>\u00a0and I\u2019m the CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=post&amp;utm_campaign=heartbeat-podcast\">Canopy<\/a> (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). Today I am absolutely thrilled to have with me someone super special. I have\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/kmin\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Kathryn Minshew<\/a>, who\u2019s the co-founder and CEO of\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/themuse.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The Muse<\/a>. You\u2019ve probably heard of The Muse if you\u2019ve ever been on a job search because they actually serve I believe over 75 million people in helping them navigate their careers, which is pretty phenomenal. Kathryn is someone who I\u2019ve definitely looked up to in the industry. Just been a big admirer of your work. I know you recently published a book called I think it\u2019s \u201cThe New Ways of Work.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/New-Rules-Work-Playbook-Navigating\/dp\/0451495675\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">New Rules of Work<\/a>.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Excuse me, \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/New-Rules-Work-Playbook-Navigating\/dp\/0451495675\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">New Rules of Work<\/a>.\u201d Just so excited to be able to ask you this one question about leadership.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: Wonderful. Thank you so much for having me. I\u2019m really excited we\u2019re able to do this too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Cool. Well, all right, Kathryn, here\u2019s the question, it\u2019s what\u2019s something you wish you would have learned earlier as a leader?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: Oh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I wish I would have learned to trust my instincts. I started The Muse when I was 25, seven years ago. Because I was so young, I was conscious of my inexperience, I sometimes I let other people overly influence the decisions that I made because it felt like I was so new to starting a business.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/637a8-1dvyowla4rm4davapbwnkqa.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: As I look back, my instincts actually served me pretty well. Sometimes I trusted them and it was absolutely the right decisions. There were other times when I overruled them and went against my better my better judgment and I regretted it. I think on top of just the trusting your instincts, obviously I\u2019m not the first person to give that advice, but I also think when you\u2019re a leader and particularly when you\u2019re the CEO of a company, a startup, at the end of the day, everything that goes wrong or that doesn\u2019t work out, like you bear the ultimate responsibility for the success or failure of initiatives, of the business, et cetera.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think when things don\u2019t go wrong but you made that decision at your call, it\u2019s hard, but you can live with that because you made the wrong call. We all make the wrong call. When something happens, if there\u2019s a failure and you knew better, you overruled your own instinct, you let someone else make a decision that really you felt deep in your gut probably should have gone differently, I think those for me are the hardest mistakes to live with. Ultimately, I would rather trust my instincts, make the calls, and deal with the results good and bad.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I\u2019m over here sort of nodding my head laughing because I\u2019m like, \u201cI can totally relate,\u201d having started running Canopy when I was 24. I don\u2019t think there was a bigger case of imposter syndrome. When that happens, I think there\u2019s something to be said about being young, whether it\u2019s being a woman or whatever it is, or a feeling as though you need to take in other people\u2019s opinions for whatever reasons that there are. I think in a world where as a CEO you are inundated with advice all the time, there\u2019s no shortage of articles or hey, video interviews about advice, it can be very easy to sort of get pushed one way or another.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For folks who are watching this, would you say that there\u2019s a spectrum of decisions in which they should sort of rely on that instinct? I mean in what situation do you feel like that\u2019s the way to go? For example, do you feel like it\u2019s when the decision is really big, is a really tough one to make, do you feel like when&nbsp;\u2026 What if it\u2019s not your expertise, right? Just to push back. Someone might be watching this and going, \u201cWell, Kathryn, what if it\u2019s not within your expertise? Do you still go with your gut?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean for you, what have you learned? Was there a specific situation or how do you sort of process how you make those decisions? Threw a few questions there at you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: Yes. First of all, I think getting better at making decisions, particularly small decisions, is something that I am actively working at right now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Because as you build a company, especially if you\u2019re trying to do something that no one\u2019s ever done before, you are calling countless problems, you\u2019re making countless decisions, and that can be exhausting. First of all, I\u2019ve tried to get better at dividing decisions into two categories.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>There are smaller decisions. This also includes maybe big decisions, but ones that are reversible. If you choose course A but you realize pretty quickly it\u2019s not right, can you just choose course B instead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>These decisions I try and make quickly. I often try and delegate. I think that you can get bogged down as a leader in over analyzing these decisions, which I have definitely been guilty of, but I\u2019m working to just ensure like, \u201cOkay. How big is this decision? What are the impacts of getting it wrong? Can we change our minds?\u201d If the answer to those three is sort of a green light, then try to make it quickly and move on. The other types of decisions I think are the sort of bigger, thornier decisions. To me, I think it depends.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/8bc1e-19rcytyh7ttfxube2hdkcda.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>Is this a guiding light or a principle\u2019s decision or is this a sort of structural or tactics decision? I\u2019ll give you an example. This is a metaphor I\u2019ve been thinking about recently. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a particularly good one, but it\u2019s the best I\u2019ve got, which is in the early days of starting a business, you\u2019re almost an explorer. Think sort of Lewis and Clark. You\u2019re charting the wilderness and you have an idea. You have a small team, but ultimately you\u2019re deciding where to go. At some point, you find sort of your product market fit, your sweet spot, and then you start building a town.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>You can be an explorer with great instincts and some level of training or very little training to some extent. But if you\u2019re building a town, you may want to actually bring in like plumbers and electricians and people that have deep technical expertise.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>For things like that, I would empower those people. Let them make decisions. Let them really lean into their skillsets because you hired them for a reason, right? It\u2019s not necessarily your job to know how to be a better electrician than the person you\u2019ve hired to help build your town.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: But when it comes to sort of principles, the core ethics, the values, the big picture direction questions of how that town comes to be, I think is where you can\u2019t delegate because I think those are the most weighty, and they\u2019re also the ones that are hardest to undo.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>People talk a lot about building culture, but changing culture is very hard. I think understanding where decision falls and how sort of irreversible it is is a really important tactic for deciding whether and how to delegate or when you need to just make and own that decision.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In fairness, I get a lot of advice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When I was earlier in my leadership journey, people often mistook my interest in their advice for, \u201cOh, well, don\u2019t just do what I tell you to.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cDon\u2019t worry I won\u2019t.\u201d I really appreciate and enjoy hearing different perspectives, and it\u2019s an ingredient to my own thinking that ultimately produces a sense of what the right answer is likely to be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I do like the explorer analogy because I think what we often forget as CEOs is as an explorer, your role is to say, \u201cHey, here\u2019s the kind of town you want to be. Here are the things we want to stand for. Here are the kinds of people we want to attract,\u201d et cetera. You could take this metaphor in a lot of ways. I think your point about the tactical decisions to getting to that point, you might not always need to be relying on your instincts and you can delegate those decisions, et cetera, and rely on expertise to carry them out, but there\u2019s something to be said for making a stand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It makes me think of this quote, what you\u2019re talking about, is \u201c<em>What hill do you want to die on?\u201d<\/em>&nbsp;For the decisions that are irreversible, those are the ones you want to make sure are with your core. One thing that you alluded to is this idea of taking in people\u2019s perspectives as an ingredient to building out your own perspective. What advice do you have for entrepreneurs, leaders, managers who are trying to enrich their perspective, who are trying to develop a better gut instinct? Is there a way to do that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: I think there is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Firstly, I try and speak to at least three different people for any big decision or any area where it\u2019s newer to me and I\u2019m learning. In particular, it\u2019s not just any three\u00a0people.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>One of those people, I like to find someone who is very similar to myself. Let\u2019s say it\u2019s a big fundraising decision or some sort of CEO strategic decision, I will specifically look for a woman CEO who potentially has had somewhat of a similar years of experience before starting a business. It doesn\u2019t have to be spot on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: This is helpful because sometimes people&nbsp;\u2026 When I was fundraising for The Muse in the early days, there were not a lot of women fundraising. I got a lot of really well-intentioned advice from them and a lot of it just didn\u2019t work. The first time I really started talking to other women who had raised, I was like, \u201cOh, their experience is a little more relevant in this because there\u2019s a factor about fundraising that makes a difference,\u201d particularly in 2011\u20132012. I hope that\u2019s changing. TBD on whether it is fast enough.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: I\u2019m with you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/c16b8-1yjca7w_rxnhlofrrsm7b_g.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: But anyway, I would look for someone whose experience was similar. On the flip side, I also like to make sure that one of those people is someone whose experience is very different and whose perspective is likely to be very different. I have an old friend, someone that I love talking to about business issues, who could not be more different in a lot of his leadership styles. He\u2019s a very aggressive leader. I mean he\u2019s known for in sort of the entrepreneurship ecosystem for big, bold, offensive, controversial bets, and yet he\u2019s a phenomenal resource because I have a little bit more of a collaborative style.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And yet sometimes I think that this is the sort of playing field available options and he\u2019s like, \u201cYeah. Also, you could over there or over there,\u201d and it widens my understanding of what decisions are possible and what factors someone totally unlike me would consider. I think that\u2019s a really useful element of developing your gut as well is spending time and developing deep relationships with people who might have a totally different approach or perspective. Then the third person is kind of just someone I think might have expertise or relevant something to share.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s less particularly important, but I think getting both the sort of near term perspective and the far away.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Then usually if it\u2019s a big decision, I try and sleep on it at least one night because sometimes it\u2019s like it\u2019s putting all the ingredients in the sort of cocktail shaker of your brain. You shake it up. You let it settle and then in a day or two it becomes clear what you want to\u00a0do.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. No, I think that\u2019s invaluable advice and something that I\u2019m going to be taking away and thinking about how can you sort of set out those differences and opinions to be able to form your own and then give yourself the time to let it percolate and have whatever pours out of that cocktail shaker to be really good instinct.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: I\u2019ll add one other thing, which I\u2019ve been trying to do more recently, which is vision retrospective.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn<\/strong>: I think to the question about developing a gut, it\u2019s not only important to practice making better decisions, but also after the decision has been made, whether it\u2019s a couple days, a week, three months, looking back and thinking, \u201cWhy did I make that decision the way that I did? What were the factors that influenced me? Am I happy with how it turned out? If not, what additional information or insight?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I think you have to be nice to yourself. Like you\u2019re not going to make all the decisions well and sometimes you\u2019re like, \u201cYou know, it would have been great to know that, but I had no\u00a0idea.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s fine, but sometimes you can realize patterns like, \u201cOh, I was too loyal to this idea or this principle. I was blind to this thing. If I just asked this person\u2019s perspective or if I have done this type of diligence, I would have uncovered the information that might have changed my mind.\u201d That\u2019s incredibly helpful because you learn those skills and they translate to better decisions in the future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: That\u2019s invaluable, invaluable advice. I think everyone who\u2019s watching this is going to be thinking, \u201cAll right. How am I going to be developing my gut instinct better and leaning on that maybe a little bit more in the bigger decisions?\u201d Well, Kathryn, thank you so much again. It\u2019s been an honor to be able to have this conversation. I know folks who are watching have learned a lot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Kathryn:<\/strong>&nbsp;Well, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it, and I look forward to hopefully doing this again some time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire:&nbsp;<\/strong>Awesome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/42eb2-1akcba9mo76jkhukvoufd2g.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"newsletter-post-form-container\">\n  <h3>Never miss a post \u2013&nbsp;get our latest leadership insights, as they&#8217;re released&#8230;<\/h3>\n\n<iframe src=\"https:\/\/newsletter.canopy.is\/embed\" width=\"850\" height=\"150\" style=\"border:1px solid #EEE; background:white;\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div>\n<br\/>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><a href=\"http:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=banner&amp;utm_content=footer\"><img decoding=\"async\" width=\"2516\" height=\"944\" src=\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/02\/CleanShot-2023-02-09-at-19.36.32@2x.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-7971\"\/><\/a><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>As the founder + CEO of a company serving 75 million people worldwide, Kathryn shares her biggest leadership lessons around trusting your gut. Every two weeks as part of The Heartbeat podcast, I asks one question to a founder, CEO, or business owner I respect. This week, I interviewed Kathryn Minshew, Founder + CEO of&hellip; <\/p>\n<p><a class=\"moretag\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse\/\">Read the full article<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":114,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/chtbl.com\/track\/D44D5\/https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/kathryn-minshew-1.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"13:03","filesize":"11.95M","date_recorded":"17-10-2018","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"28","itunes_title":"Interview with Kathryn Minshew, Founder and CEO of The Muse","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","filesize_raw":"12533759"},"tags":[],"series":[3529],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/637a8-1dvyowla4rm4davapbwnkqa.png","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/plugins\/seriously-simple-podcasting\/assets\/images\/no-album-art.png","download_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-download\/1651\/episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1651\/episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse.mp3","audio_player":"<!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1651-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1651\/episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1651\/episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse.mp3\">https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1651\/episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/the-heartbeat","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Ka0VbmyaJT\"><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse\/\">Episode 28: Interview with Kathryn Minshew, Founder and CEO of The Muse<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-28-interview-with-kathryn-minshew-founder-and-ceo-of-the-muse\/embed\/#?secret=Ka0VbmyaJT\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Episode 28: Interview with Kathryn Minshew, Founder and CEO of The Muse&#8221; &#8212; Canopy | Blog\" data-secret=\"Ka0VbmyaJT\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! 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