{"id":1519,"date":"2019-01-26T00:36:55","date_gmt":"2019-01-26T00:36:55","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=1519"},"modified":"2025-04-21T15:04:51","modified_gmt":"2025-04-21T22:04:51","slug":"episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 25: Interview with Wayne Sutton, Co-founder + CTO of Change Catalyst"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe width=\"1400\" height=\"788\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/C-QbOUBtTjs?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-as-a-serial-entrepreneur-who-has-been-featured-on-cnn-usa-today-bbc-and-the-wall-street-journal-wayne-talks-frankly-about-self-awareness-and-depression-as-a-leader-in-our-interview\">As a serial entrepreneur who has been featured on CNN, USA Today, BBC, and the Wall Street Journal, Wayne talks frankly about self-awareness and depression as a leader in our interview.<\/h4>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Hi everyone, I\u2019m\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/clairejlew\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Claire<\/a>, and I\u2019m the CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=post&amp;utm_campaign=heartbeat-podcast\">Canopy<\/a> (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). Today, I am super excited to have with me,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/waynesutton\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Wayne Sutton<\/a>, who is a serial entrepreneur. He\u2019s also the Co-founder and CTO of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/changecatalyst.co\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><em>Change Catalyst<\/em><\/a>, which hosts\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/techinclusion.co\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Tech Inclusion<\/a>, this great tech conference. And he\u2019s just in general, extremely passionate about making the tech industry more diverse and more inclusive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I actually have never met Wayne in person. I actually read this really insightful piece that he wrote on Medium a while back about entrepreneurship, and depression, and self-awareness. It was so vulnerable, and I thought, so well done that I reached out cold and really wanted to have you on The Heartbeat.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, Wayne, thank you for being here. I\u2019m excited to ask you this one question about leadership.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: Thanks for having me. Thanks for reaching out, and looking forward to the conversation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. So, okay, Wayne, here\u2019s the question. It\u2019s what\u2019s one thing you wish you would have learned earlier as a leader?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/5207a-1iruves9-krmyyl83qjt1sq.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>&nbsp;: Great question. The one thing I wish I would have learned early as a leader is self-awareness. Self-awareness about how I process my thoughts, my emotions. How and why I feel a certain way in certain interactions, in certain environments, or how did I even become self-aware to identify trigger moments, or trigger interactions with people, and what can I do to positively make change when a trigger moment happens. That could be something from my childhood, or a relationship, or another professional environment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And also, in self-awareness, I wish I would have learned about how environments affects my productivity. How disruption, in terms of workflow, or meetings, or interactions, can increase or decrease my momentum in terms of being productive throughout the day, and what do I need to do to refuel myself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>So, if I had to sum it up, self-awareness about how to process my thoughts, my emotions, my interactions, that helps me be a better person, a better leader, a better human, and a happier individual.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I love that answer, Wayne, because I think self-awareness is probably the most underrated aspect of leadership. There\u2019s not a lot of books that you read about self-awareness with leaders. You read about power and authority and decision making and strategy and growth, but not often about self-awareness. So, I love that that\u2019s something you mentioned.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For you, when in your career did you realize how important this was. Was this something sort of very early on when you were starting to become an entrepreneur you realized right away, or was this something kind of later in your career, and only more recently where you realized the importance of self-awareness?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: It was way more later in my career. It was after when I\u2019d hit rock bottom. like many people, you hit rock bottom.It came in a situation where I literally moved all the way across the country from North Carolina to San Francisco. I had a very young son, I was going through a separation, divorce, I had co founded an incubator and accelerator for underrepresented founders. I made a decision to leave that and now I\u2019m in this whole new world, a lot of sacrifices, different environment. I had a very small support network in the Bay Area, not that many friends. There\u2019s a lot of homelessness here, 90% of the homeless I think is African American, so people look like me, and I went through a stage of deep, dark depression.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I would probably say the middle or after that, I started reading books. Everything on conflict resolution, co-dependance. Books around love, books around meditation. I started getting into meditation, started a meditation practice. At first, 3 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. Along with that journey, I had to take some time off, and then through all of that, I started going to a therapist, and that therapist started helping me process all those emotions and get to some root cause of my thinking patterns and my mindset that created some a-ha moments for me. It was like, this is why I feel this way. This is why I think this way. And through all those trials, and those interactions, and sessions in therapy, and reading books, it started answering one question. And the question was why?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As I started getting to why, you become more self-aware.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes. First of all, I\u2019m blown away by that level of self reflection because I think for all of us in our lives, we hit a moment of rock bottom. It\u2019s different levels for different people, right? Of course. But there are always turning points in people\u2019s lives, where you go, \u201cOh yeah, that was a dark time,\u201d or, \u201cOh, that was not when I was at my best.\u201d And I think it\u2019s interesting the reactions people can have to that. So you can sort of bulldoze your way through it and sort of keep your habits the way you\u2019ve always been doing things, and you just kind of find a way through it, and the path that you\u2019re describing, Wayne, requires a lot more introspection, requires a lot more change, and self reflection.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And you said the most important question is why. I think, I guess for the leaders who are watching this, who may be saying, \u201cWayne, I\u2019ve been in ut situation. I\u2019ve been through a traumatic low-point in my life,\u201d or, \u201cI\u2019m going through that right now.\u201d What advice do you have for them to have the courage to be this introspective? \u2019Cause it\u2019s scary. How did you decide to, for example, go see a therapist? How did you decide to start doing some active self work and reading books? How did you decide to start asking this question, why?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: I wanna say, first, I wouldn\u2019t be here if it wasn\u2019t for my family, close friends, mentors who care about, and people who I may have had one or two interactions with, who are now like my mentors and lifelong friends. So that\u2019s one. And then, after that, the time I took off was the most helpful in that moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/b7011-1yzgvxlbril9v6sptfh4loq.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: I understand that I was in a privileged environment to be able to say, \u201cAll right, I can take almost a month off and disconnect from everything.\u201d A lot of people can\u2019t do that. But I was able to do that. It\u2019s one of the good and bad problems about hitting rock bottom, you have nowhere to go but up. And so, took that time off, and then once I got emotionally, intellectually back on track, I was reminded of my goals. Reminded that I have a son. Reminded why I came to San Francisco. What were my objectives? What did I want to accomplish in life? And from there, it was like, with baby steps, making little small changes, say, \u201cI can\u2019t give up.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s number one. Number two, is that&nbsp;\u2026 Create a plan. I had put things in motion before I took the time off that okay, I was moving into a new apartment in San Francisco, that was gonna be available when I got back, or when I was ready. I had a job offer with a startup, that was gonna be ready when I got back, if I chose. My divorce was final. I had a little bit of cash, I said, you know what, I can do this. And then with that plan, was continue with the therapist. I met with a couple in San Francisco, there\u2019s not a lot of like&nbsp;\u2026 Their black population is, I think, 5%, and therapists I think is maybe 1%. I got fortunate to connect with the one black therapist, \u2019cause I wanted someone who can relate to my culture and identity. She was phenomenal, and to help me understand what was going on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so, with all that, that plan, that strategy, it helped me get to a level of action to question like, why? Why did I feel this way? Why did I think there was moment where I had to give up? Why did I make those decisions to even move out here. Like all these things helped me identify the why.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: I hope I answered your question.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Oh, beyond. Even beyond what I was originally asking, Wayne. So many threads I wanna pull on here and highlight for people who can relate to this situation. I mean, one, you talked about the importance of a support group and a support network and a community, and I think as leaders, it\u2019s so easy to say that we can go it on our own. That we don\u2019t need anyone, and that we\u2019re the leader, everyone\u2019s looking to us when in reality, something that I love, that you talked about was no, lean on your close friends, lean on even acquaintances who\u2019ve said that one encouraging thing to you. So, I think that\u2019s something that\u2019s really key.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think the second sort of piece I want to highlight that you mentioned, is the importance of pausing and taking a break. We rush so easily in our day to day lives, especially as leaders, to find a solution, to work at a certain pace, and that\u2019s great. I\u2019m all about speed and getting things done, I\u2019m sure you are too. No one\u2019s saying not to do that, but you said you took a month off, right? And the importance of pausing. Yeah, I\u2019m curious, Wayne, when you wrote this blog post around self-awareness, and I\u2019m sure as you talked to plenty of entrepreneurs and founders, what advice do you give them around being more self-aware? Is there anything that feel like you wish you would have known earlier in terms of&nbsp;\u2026 Or sharing with people, \u201cThese are things I wish I would have known earlier,\u201d or, \u201cMake sure to sort of take advantage of these things as leader,\u201d or, \u201cBe mindful of these things.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: Yes, it can be challenging working with entrepreneurs who are not ready to process that. And something I wanna touch on before I answer that question, is on a comment you made about taking that time off, and being transparent, because we have made a huge mistake in the tech industry identifying role models with God complexes, type-A behavior to have all the answers. We have made a huge, human, fundamental, cultural mistake in the tech industry, \u2019cause that\u2019s not how we are as humans. That\u2019s not actually how we do business. That\u2019s not actually how we succeed in life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And often, you hear these stories of people, and I\u2019m not Richard Branson, or \u2013<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Elon Musk, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: I try to use&nbsp;\u2026 I try not to use no more than one white male example at a time, \u2019cause there\u2019s more, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Of course.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: There\u2019s Rob Johnson, who\u2019s a billion dollar African American investor. So, it\u2019s like, there\u2019s all these people who come out later and just talk about, \u201cOh,\u201d like when they made it. And so, I just wanna touch on that, that as humans, and we talk about leadership, you don\u2019t have to have all the answers. And I strongly believe, the more you can take time to refuel, reflect on the little wins and the losses, and be transparent about your feelings, the better you will be, and you will be able to lead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/ac285-1uaccj3azdiremkndghkwcw.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: So, take your time off. And so, with that, the advice I often give entrepreneurs, because many are just going. That\u2019s how I was early in my career. I\u2019m in my 40s now, and they\u2019re just going. They\u2019re trying to get money, they\u2019re trying to raise money, they\u2019re trying to get their product launched, they\u2019re trying to find a CTO, they\u2019re trying to launch a company, they\u2019re trying to get customers, and they\u2019re just focused on the goals. I\u2019ve been there, you\u2019re so focused on, I need to hit this metric, I need to get this goal, I need to meet this person who\u2019s gonna change my life. And you\u2019re not taking a step back to say, okay, you meet this person, but how are you feeling? What are gonna do? What happens if everybody says yes? What happens if everybody says no? How you gonna deal with that emotionally? How can you handle rejection? How do you handle success? Are you grateful for the little wins? Do you celebrate that gratefulness with your colleagues?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, you try to break it down into simple transactional interactions that are emotional. And then you start processing that way, then it\u2019s like, oh, I don\u2019t know how&nbsp;\u2026 what happens if get told no, I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m told yes, and we get the deal, and everything\u2019s perfect, I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m gonna be happy, yeah. But then what happens if you are told no 100 times and try to raise a million dollars, and you\u2019re like, I\u2019m going to succeed no matter what. Have you thought about how you handle rejection? And those type questions get to a process of becoming self-aware. Because it starts making you cognitively think about how you deal with interactions, and then it also touches on the why, because it\u2019s like you may be angry and taking it out on a coworker, maybe upset because you didn\u2019t reach your big vision of raising a million dollars, but what\u2019s the why with that? You tried so hard and you were told no, no, no, no. Or when you know you deserve a raise, a salary promotion, and you see a coworker or a male get it, and you didn\u2019t \u2019cause you\u2019re a woman, and you know you deserve it. So that\u2019s your why.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, try to break it down to transaction interactions is how I interact with entrepreneurs to help them become self-aware, and then once they become&nbsp;\u2026 Get to that state where they understand well, this is why I\u2019m not happy or I\u2019m not succeeding, or I\u2019m not in a good emotional state, then we\u2019re talking about solutions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I love what you\u2019re saying about just slowing down that process for how we make those decisions instead of rushing into them, and I mean, I\u2019ve caught myself in this often, which is you\u2019re on autopilot. You see the goal, you know what you need to do, and it\u2019s just a matter of sort of sprinting, or running to get there, but you know, that\u2019s how athletes injure themselves, right? It\u2019s when they\u2019re not training properly or sleeping well, or understanding the mechanics of their body, or asking if they\u2019re over stressing a certain part, right? Not to take the analogy too far, but I think turning off that auto pilot and really self reflecting is how we build that self-awareness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Wayne, thank you so much for your incredible insights. Yeah, it\u2019s just refreshing to have such a clear and real perspective on the psychology of being a leader, or being an entrepreneur, and not always having everything go your way all the time. \u2019Cause that sure is life, so thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wayne<\/strong>: You\u2019re welcome, you\u2019re welcome. And you\u2019re right, that\u2019s how life works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: You got it, thanks again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/11e7d-1lfek6hl4o02bomnuixheva.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"newsletter-post-form-container\">\n  <h3>Never miss a post \u2013&nbsp;get our latest leadership insights, as they&#8217;re released&#8230;<\/h3>\n\n<iframe src=\"https:\/\/newsletter.canopy.is\/embed\" width=\"850\" height=\"150\" style=\"border:1px solid #EEE; background:white;\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div>\n<br\/>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><a href=\"http:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=banner&amp;utm_content=footer\"><img decoding=\"async\" width=\"2516\" height=\"944\" src=\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/02\/CleanShot-2023-02-09-at-19.36.32@2x.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-7971\"\/><\/a><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>As a serial entrepreneur who has been featured on CNN, USA Today, BBC, and the Wall Street Journal, Wayne talks frankly about self-awareness and depression as a leader in our interview. Claire: Hi everyone, I\u2019m\u00a0Claire, and I\u2019m the CEO of Canopy (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). Today, I am super excited to have with&hellip; <\/p>\n<p><a class=\"moretag\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst\/\">Read the full article<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":201,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/chtbl.com\/track\/D44D5\/https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/wayne-sutton.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"17:40","filesize":"16.18M","date_recorded":"29-08-2018","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"25","itunes_title":"Interview with Wayne Sutton, Co-founder + CTO of Change Catalyst","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","filesize_raw":"16961200"},"tags":[],"series":[3529],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/b7011-1yzgvxlbril9v6sptfh4loq.png","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/plugins\/seriously-simple-podcasting\/assets\/images\/no-album-art.png","download_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-download\/1519\/episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1519\/episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst.mp3","audio_player":"<!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1519-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1519\/episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1519\/episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst.mp3\">https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1519\/episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/the-heartbeat","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"lOE4LA4k6T\"><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst\/\">Episode 25: Interview with Wayne Sutton, Co-founder + CTO of Change Catalyst<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-25-interview-with-wayne-sutton-co-founder-cto-of-change-catalyst\/embed\/#?secret=lOE4LA4k6T\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Episode 25: Interview with Wayne Sutton, Co-founder + CTO of Change Catalyst&#8221; &#8212; Canopy | Blog\" data-secret=\"lOE4LA4k6T\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! 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