{"id":1504,"date":"2019-01-26T00:02:00","date_gmt":"2019-01-26T00:02:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=1504"},"modified":"2025-04-21T15:08:23","modified_gmt":"2025-04-21T22:08:23","slug":"episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 20: Interview with Rob Walling, Founder of Drip + MicroConf"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe width=\"1400\" height=\"788\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/hDnIKLQEt9c?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-rob-walling-is-the-founder-of-drip-an-email-automation-platform\"><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/robwalling\">Rob Walling<\/a>&nbsp;is the Founder of&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.drip.com\/\">Drip<\/a>, an email automation platform. <\/h4>\n\n\n\n<p>A serial entrepreneur who has published&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0999651803\/\"><g class=\"gr_ gr_5 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep\" id=\"5\" data-gr-id=\"5\"><g class=\"gr_ gr_5 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep\" id=\"5\" data-gr-id=\"5\">books<\/g><\/g><\/a><g class=\"gr_ gr_5 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_disable_anim_appear Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep\" id=\"5\" data-gr-id=\"5\"><g class=\"gr_ gr_5 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_disable_anim_appear Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep\" id=\"5\" data-gr-id=\"5\">,<\/g><\/g> runs&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.microconf.com\/\">MicroConf<\/a>, and hosts a&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.startupsfortherestofus.com\/\">podcast<\/a>, Rob shares the importance of deliberate <g class=\"gr_ gr_6 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep\" id=\"6\" data-gr-id=\"6\"><g class=\"gr_ gr_6 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep\" id=\"6\" data-gr-id=\"6\">hiring,<\/g><\/g> and focusing on trust instead of loyalty in teams.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire:\u00a0<\/strong>Hey everyone, I\u2019m\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/cjlew23\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Claire Lew<\/a>, and I\u2019m the CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=post&amp;utm_campaign=heartbeat-podcast\">Canopy<\/a> (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company) and today I have a really special guest. I have\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/robwalling\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Rob Walling<\/a>, who is the co-founder of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.drip.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Drip<\/a>, an email marketing automation software. Actually, I don\u2019t know if you know this, Rob, we actually use Drip, your company. We love it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>&nbsp;You know, I didn\u2019t. Awesome. That\u2019s great to hear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire:<\/strong>&nbsp;Yeah, and it\u2019s actually, it\u2019s only one of many things, or ways, that Rob and I are connected. Rob is a serial entrepreneur. He started multiple companies in the past, he speaks at a ton of conferences, he runs a conference called&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.microconf.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">MicroConf<\/a>which I actually happen to speak at, so just been a big admirer of your work over the years Rob. Everything you\u2019ve built. And I know recently you\u2019ve and your wife&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/zenfounder\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Sherry<\/a>actually just published a book-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>:&nbsp;\u2026 which I highly recommend for people to check out. Just by the title. I believe it\u2019s&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0999651803\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><em>The Entrepreneur\u2019s Guide to Keeping Your Shit Together<\/em><\/a>. So I think-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: That\u2019s exactly right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: I think we could all probably read a page or two out of that just based off the title. But yeah, an honor to have you here today Rob. Thanks for joining us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: It is my pleasure. Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Cool. Well, so Rob, I\u2019ve been asking all sorts of folks this past year this one question about leadership, and what it is, is \u201cWhat\u2019s something you wish you would have learned earlier as a leader?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/7fbbc-11uvzo9k0hd6qhst2wl2cpa.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: Yeah, it\u2019s a great question. I\u2019ll have to go back and listen to all the prior answers. I did not on purpose so that I wouldn\u2019t accidentally say someone else\u2019s.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I wish that I had learned that I didn\u2019t need all the answers. I don\u2019t need all the answers as a leader, and that hiring people that are better than I am at something, and then when a problem comes up looking around the room and saying \u201cI don\u2019t know. What do you\u00a0think?\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, and it\u2019s not always that. It\u2019s not always putting it back on everybody else, but for me leading 15 years ago when I first started in my 20s, I was all nervous like \u201cI have to be the boss and I have to know the answers and when people come to me I have to be able to say \u2018Well this is what we should do.\u2019\u201d And over time realized \u201cNo, I work with really smart people,\u201d especially if I\u2019m hiring well, and my most recent experience with that is at Drip, and it\u2019s the best team I\u2019ve ever assembled, it\u2019s the best team I\u2019ve ever worked with. And now when problems come up, it is always a look around the room and saying \u201cSomeone here knows this answer. It may be me, but it\u2019s most likely going to be one of you.\u201d And that\u2019s&nbsp;\u2026 I wished I had known that a lot sooner.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Wow. Yeah. I can totally relate. Oh my goodness. I think there\u2019s something almost inherent in how our culture even thinks about leadership, right? That leaders know the answers. That\u2019s the whole point. And so I love that realization. I also think something really interesting that you just talked about is how you feel like Drip, the current company that you founded, is your best team assembled to date, right? So tell me about, was it something different you then did in the hiring process or in thinking through as you\u2019re coaching people? Why is it different? And in what was is this idea that you don\u2019t have to be the one knowing all the answers? What role did that play in so that&nbsp;\u2026 you know, that\u2019s a bold statement. \u201cThe best team to date I\u2019ve ever assembled.\u201d So I want to hear more about that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: Yeah. Yeah sure. I mean, there\u2019s a couple reasons that I say that, or that I was able to build that team. I say it because it\u2019s true, and I enjoy my work so much more working with these folks, and they\u2019re the&nbsp;\u2026 whatever scale, if you were to say one to ten as developers, one to ten as co-workers, one to ten as whatever, just across the board the folks I work with now are better. And I\u2019ve worked with great people. I\u2019ve been coding, essentially, for 20 years, almost\u200a\u2014\u200acoding and founding software companies for almost 20 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The reason I was able to do it differently this time was a couple things. One, I had full control. Like, I built it from square one. I was employee number one. Derek my co-founder. Number two, there was no one kind of foisted on me. The other thing is, since Drip did grow very quickly, I had budget to hire at a level that I used to not be able to. I used to hire a lot of contractors. I needed cheap talent because if one of my apps was making 20 grand a month, it\u2019s like you can only hire someone so good and still pay the bills, you know? But Drip had the growth and the revenue to cover it. And the third thing is, I had the luxury. Well, there\u2019s four things. I\u2019m going to keep going.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Keep going. Keep going.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: The third was my network was the biggest it\u2019s every been. You know, as you said I have a conference now and I have all this history, and the blog, and the podcast and just all this stuff that I\u2019ve done, that it enabled me to kind of have a reputation to draw people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>But the fourth reason that I think is perhaps of all those, one of the most important, is we hired slowly and we were very picky. We turned down dozens of candidates for every person that we have wound up bringing\u00a0on.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And so it has meant at times we don\u2019t hire as fast as I would have liked, and as a result sometimes the road map isn\u2019t moving as fast as I would have liked, but it was a long term view. You know, I\u2019ve been working on Drip for five years now. It is a long term view of, in the end five years from now this team will be phenomenal if we just slow it down a little bit, versus making that snap decision. \u201cWell, no, just say yes to this person,\u201d and then you\u2019re a year down the line like \u201cOh my God, I\u2019ve built a toxic culture,\u201d or \u201cNow I have to fire two people because they\u2019re not working out.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I think that\u2019s tremendous advice. Almost so much more difficult to practice, than it is talking about. Because I know the temptation, especially for folks who are funded or who have the luxury of being able to spend cash up front pretty easily to hire folks. Yeah, you can\u2019t move as fast if you don\u2019t have the right people, so that temptation is definitely there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What sort of checks or questions or processes did you put in place, or how did you think about consciously? It sounds like a very conscious decision of \u201cI\u2019m going to slow down this hiring process and we\u2019re going to wait it out.\u201d How do you make that call? How do you decide when that? Especially as you start off as a self funded company, right? You don\u2019t have that luxury. You have competitors who are funded. I mean, how do you grapple with that as a founder, as a leader?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/679f2-1ai_gp1xh39rhrqed_6qwsg.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: You know, I didn\u2019t make the deliberate decision to slow it down as much as I made the deliberate decision to hire very carefully, which by its nature the result is that it does slow down. So I wish we could hire faster, but the checks as you were saying, is we have a few layers of interviews, and that first interview is all about personality, and it\u2019s all about probing into things and catching: What are the yellow flags and what are the red flags?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>If we talk to someone with no yellow flags, I\u2019m suspicious, like we didn\u2019t get their true self. Because if I was in an interview, you would pick up on things, and it\u2019s like \u201cYeah, Rob\u2019s really good at this, and Rob\u2019s going to kind of be a pain in the ass about that. Rob\u2019s not going to be great at this.\u201d You\u2019re just going to know. No one is infallible, and so if I don\u2019t pick up on at least a couple, a yellow flag or two, we actually dig further. And then you just start seeing patterns.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019ve done hundreds, literally hundreds and hundreds of interviews over the course of the 20 years of hiring developers and product people. And so I think at a certain point its trusting gut. But also we have four or five different people who talk to the candidate over the course of a couple weeks, and we do pair programming now which has been a real game changer for us. A one hour pair programming interview to look at not just the technical. It\u2019s not \u201cOh, do they know the right words?\u201d It\u2019s like \u201cHow are they to sit next to for one hour and code with? How does that feel?\u201d I think we really upped our game there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>And as usual, it\u2019s, \u201cIf in doubt it\u2019s probably a\u00a0no.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Hmm. Yeah. I think that\u2019s so wise.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I want to go back, Rob, to the original statement you made as the answer to the question about letting go of having to be the person with the answers. Talk to me about the time prior to that revelation when you felt like you needed to know the answers. I mean, what was the cost of that? Was there some event or something that happened or a conversation that you had where it caused you to realize \u201cOh gosh, the whole point of having a team I guess is for me to not know everything,\u201d or&nbsp;\u2026 I\u2019m very curious about that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: What caused that mindset shift.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right. What caused it, or if there were any&nbsp;\u2026 if you got burned because of it at any moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: The cost of it was that it was a mental cost, right? It was having the burden of constantly having to go from a manager\u2019s point of view or a CEO point of view where you\u2019re kind of at 10,000 feet and then someone comes with something, and it\u2019s like \u201cAlright, I need to dig in and actually look at this code and make a decision,\u201d right? And it\u2019s like \u201cHuh, this is taxing mentally,\u201d because you only have so much good glucose in a day that you can use for interesting things or decision fatigue sets in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>So that was probably the biggest cost for me, is I just could only make so many decisions, and I was making too many I should not\u00a0have.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And the tipping point was two things. One, it was eventually realizing that was just stupid, and then two it was starting to work with better people. And Derek was&nbsp;\u2026 was Derek the first? There was a support guy before that named Andy who took everything off my plate and I started realizing \u201cWait a minute, this is very interesting.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>At a certain point he\u2019s really good, fully remote, and I\u2019d never met him in person. We\u2019ve worked together for eight years or whatever. He started saying \u201cHey, I think I\u2019m just going to make some decisions about some stuff that I\u2019m checking in with you.\u201d And I was like \u201cFine. Do it.\u201d And I would look back and be like, he made 20 decisions last month that prior I would have asked him to run by me, and one of them was wrong in my book, or it didn\u2019t live up to what I would have done. The cost of that one decision compared to the 19 I didn\u2019t have to make was just so over. It was such an offset that I was like, \u201cThis is a no brainer. I need to find more people like him, and I need to do this again.\u201d You know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then finding my co-founder Derek, co-founder of Drip, pretty quickly we talked through what the original incarnation of Drip would be on my kitchen table, and then I said \u201cAll right, you let me know when you have something to show me.\u201d It was like six or eight weeks later, he comes back, which is&nbsp;\u2026 I never did with developers, right? He was a contractor at the time and eventually became my co-founder. I would never do that because it was always like \u201cSend me weekly updates with this, and the screenshot and then I can tweak the this and then copy it,\u201d you know. And he came back after six or eight weeks and I was like \u201cDamn, that\u2019s really good. Let\u2019s tweak these two things.\u201d And it was like \u201cHuh.\u201d Working with someone of his caliber really makes this a lot easier, and during that time I was able to focus on marketing and all this other stuff, and so those were kind of the events that led me to that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I think something that what you\u2019re talking about, one thought that it evokes is, I talk with so many emerging managers, right? So, new managers, first time managers, who find and struggle with that decision point of, how much do I trust? How much do I let go? I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m going to see the caliber of the work that\u2019s there. I mean, what advice would you have for folks in that situation who feel like they\u2019re not sure if they\u2019re ready to give that space? What would you say to that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/f8977-1jioun38-az-ykaqebf0dqg.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: Yeah. I think that \u201ctrust but verify\u201d is kind of what I start with, with people. So basically trust them to make the right call and see if they did, and over time you will learn to trust them more, and if they\u2019re doing well, and if they\u2019re not, then they\u2019re probably not right for the role. I think that\u2019s a big thing, right? It\u2019s the kind of fire fast type thing, and in our world of start ups, when every person counts and you have a team of five or a team of seven, everyone needs to be high achieving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so I think when a new person would start, it was a slow, kind of a slow trust building in both directions to be honest, and coming back to your original question about leadership, that\u2019s probably the one thing&nbsp;\u2026 you didn\u2019t ask this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>But if I were to think, what is the one thing as a leader that is my job to do, and it\u2019s instill trust in both directions. That\u2019s what I strive for. And that ultimately leads to loyalty. I used to say it\u2019s instill loyalty, but I realize trust comes\u00a0first.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Talk to me about the difference. I\u2019m so curious. I\u2019m with you. I want to hear more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: Trust is just a matter of like, from my perspective as a leader, it\u2019s like \u201cI\u2019m going to give you stuff or I\u2019m going to help you figure out what to do, and I\u2019m going to trust that you\u2019re going to do the best you can and you\u2019re going to come to me when you have questions, and you\u2019re going to deliver a good product.\u201d Trust in the other direction, to me, from my colleague, I believe is that I have your back in every situation. That when a customer screams at you on the phone, that that customer&nbsp;\u2026 I either have a conversation or I fire the customer, that I do not let my people get abused. And I\u2019ve done that many times. Email and all that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That I have your back when the database goes down on a weekday, I don\u2019t just push the developer or the DBA to do it, that I\u2019m actually sitting there as well trying to figure stuff out. That doesn\u2019t scale when you\u2019re at 50 people, but when you\u2019re at five, yes. You trust that I essentially have your back, and over time. So trust is something that you can develop by showing up and by doing what I was talking about. And then I think loyalty develops with trust over time, and loyalty becomes less of \u201cI know you\u2019re going to be there,\u201d and more of \u201cI want to have your back as well,\u201d if that makes sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s a mutual feeling of \u201cI\u2019m willing to take a&nbsp;\u2026\u201d either of us are willing to take a figurative bullet in business to be able to support you. And that may mean \u201cBoy, I\u2019m going to work this weekend even though you didn\u2019t ask,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019m going to work this weekend and not resent it because you did ask and I know that you don\u2019t do this often, and I know that you need this,\u201d or whatever it is. You know, we didn\u2019t work a lot of weekends, but those are examples, right? It\u2019s like \u201cI\u2019m willing to go the extra mile for you both as the founder and as the person, the developer or the customer success person.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. Yeah, no, I love that you emphasize that. It\u2019s one of the main roles of the leader to instill trust, because I couldn\u2019t agree more in many ways. Trust, it\u2019s the oil of the machine, right? Nothing functions without that sense of trust, and you\u2019ve got my back, I\u2019ve got yours. And that when you argue we have our best intentions in mind. I\u2019m not trying to screw you over, I\u2019m not trying to take credit for something, and I think as a leader, again, our mental models around what leadership is, is about decisions, it\u2019s about vision, it\u2019s about charisma. Trust doesn\u2019t get brought up very often, so I really appreciate you sharing that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: Yup. For sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Well hey Rob, thank you so much again for your time today. It\u2019s been a blast to get to talk to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rob<\/strong>: Absolutely. I enjoyed it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/0b2db-1pfg-80_0-obf1znnsxakhw.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"newsletter-post-form-container\">\n  <h3>Never miss a post \u2013&nbsp;get our latest leadership insights, as they&#8217;re released&#8230;<\/h3>\n\n<iframe src=\"https:\/\/newsletter.canopy.is\/embed\" width=\"850\" height=\"150\" style=\"border:1px solid #EEE; background:white;\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div>\n<br\/>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Rob Walling&nbsp;is the Founder of&nbsp;Drip, an email automation platform. A serial entrepreneur who has published&nbsp;books, runs&nbsp;MicroConf, and hosts a&nbsp;podcast, Rob shares the importance of deliberate hiring, and focusing on trust instead of loyalty in teams. Claire:\u00a0Hey everyone, I\u2019m\u00a0Claire Lew, and I\u2019m the CEO of Canopy (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company) and today I have&hellip; <\/p>\n<p><a class=\"moretag\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf\/\">Read the full article<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":322,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/chtbl.com\/track\/D44D5\/https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/rob-walling.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"15:31","filesize":"14.21M","date_recorded":"23-05-2018","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"20","itunes_title":"Interview with Rob Walling, Founder of Drip + MicroConf","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","filesize_raw":"14898154"},"tags":[],"series":[3529],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/0b2db-1pfg-80_0-obf1znnsxakhw.png","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/plugins\/seriously-simple-podcasting\/assets\/images\/no-album-art.png","download_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-download\/1504\/episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1504\/episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf.mp3","audio_player":"<!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1504-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1504\/episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1504\/episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf.mp3\">https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1504\/episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/the-heartbeat","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"YoWYPnLIoD\"><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf\/\">Episode 20: Interview with Rob Walling, Founder of Drip + MicroConf<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-20-interview-with-rob-walling-founder-of-drip-microconf\/embed\/#?secret=YoWYPnLIoD\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Episode 20: Interview with Rob Walling, Founder of Drip + MicroConf&#8221; &#8212; Canopy | Blog\" data-secret=\"YoWYPnLIoD\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! 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