{"id":1501,"date":"2019-01-25T23:58:17","date_gmt":"2019-01-25T23:58:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=1501"},"modified":"2025-04-21T15:10:20","modified_gmt":"2025-04-21T22:10:20","slug":"episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 19: Interview with David Cancel, CEO of Drift"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe width=\"1400\" height=\"788\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/m62mCsgW3nU?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/dcancel\">David Cancel<\/a>&nbsp;is the CEO of&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.drift.com\/\">Drift<\/a>, a conversational sales platform that has over 100,000 customers. Having started five companies previously, David shares lessons learned as a leader \u2013&nbsp;including the importance of people, one-on-ones, and \u201cno consensus\u201d in teams.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Hi, everyone. I\u2019m\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/cjlew23\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Claire Lew<\/a>\u00a0and I\u2019m the CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=post&amp;utm_campaign=heartbeat-podcast\">Canopy<\/a> (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). Today we have a super special guest with us. We have\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/dcancel\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">David Cancel<\/a>\u00a0who is the CEO of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.drift.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Drift<\/a>, this incredible sales conversational marketing platform that I believe has over 100,000 customers. Just has seen a ton of success. David is just a really amazing entrepreneur having started I believe I was reading five companies before he was formally the chief product officer at Hubspot. When it comes to talking about leadership we are so excited to have you. Thanks for being here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Thanks for having me, Claire. I\u2019m a big fan of the&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/theheartbeat.news\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">newsletter<\/a>. Everyone here should be subscribing if they\u2019re not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: It\u2019s amazing. Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: All right. Well, you heard it from David. I did not pay him to say that. Do it if you were not subscribed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: I\u2019m also a subscriber to your app as well. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Awesome. Yes. Love it. Thanks. Thanks for the plug there too. We have an online community for leaders. David, that\u2019s awesome that you\u2019re a part of it. Well, you know the drill. You know what the question is coming up but I\u2019m going to pose it your way. The question I\u2019ve been asking all these leaders lately is: \u201cWhat\u2019s something that you wish you would have learned earlier as a leader?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/b78f1-1tbczhbhkvpifsek3893oxq.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: So many things. I think the thing I think about the most&nbsp;\u2026 There\u2019s so many. The list is long. I should do a long blog post or something about this but the biggest one I think now is that it\u2019s 99% people and 1% everything else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>What I mean by that is having spent my first half of my career focused on everything else, which is like building the software, building marketing, sales, this, that. All the stuff that we actually spend all our time reading and doing all day that was the 1% of it. The real thing is it\u2019s 99% people. Those people being inside your company and those people being your customers and it\u2019s all\u00a0that.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Once you look at it from that lens then you think, \u201cWell, those problems are pretty well-known\u201d and it leads you to a whole different discovery in terms of reading, in terms of understanding about just how to communicate and how to talk to people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. Was there anything across your career like a moment you can nail down or look back to where that shift happened? Or was it a gradual process?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Yeah. I think it was gradual in that it took a long time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I think what happened was you fail or you feel the pain, I should say, you feel pain enough times that you finally wisen up. Mother Nature is going to teach you the hard way or the easy way and I was choosing the hard\u00a0way.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Where I would hit this is at a certain scaling point there\u2019s always these magical scaling moments in companies that make no sense when you get beyond 10 and 50 and 100 then everything starts to break. I just kept going back to focusing in on the stuff that I thought was important but all the real problems and all the things stopping the company were all of these people issues inside, outside the building.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They weren\u2019t the technical things. They weren\u2019t go-to-market. They weren\u2019t the technology. They weren\u2019t the stack. They weren\u2019t any of that stuff. It was really the people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. What would you say is the biggest people issue, if you had to choose? What do you feel like is one of the most challenging? I know, take your pick, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Yeah. I think basically it\u2019s the communication. It\u2019s the aspect of communication is we don\u2019t really understand that everyone is slightly different or wildly different and that they need to be communicated to in different ways and absorb information and communication in different ways.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think we all know that on the surface. Everyone would say, \u201cYeah. Yeah. That\u2019s obvious. Yeah, I know that. I know that.\u201d Then when we go and turn around and try to communicate to someone we communicate to them in the way that we want to be communicated to. It took me I\u2019d say back in 2007, 2006, I had a company called Compete and we were just getting acquired. That was in 2007. I remember the dates.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Someone on the team, our VP of marketing at the time, wanted everyone to take a Myers-Briggs test. I was the CTO, I was engineer background, I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. I hated it. We were probably 150 or so people and I think I was number 150th to take it because I was just silent protest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I took it and now it\u2019s all I talk about is personalities and this and that. It was a discovery for me because not really in what it told me about myself because most of us kind of know a lot of that but the fact that everyone was so different and just looking at them and just trying to understand them just logically of like, \u201cOh, this is why when I say X, Y, Z in a certain way they\u2019re not really getting it.\u201d It was just this big light bulb moment from a very simple test that anyone can take online. Simple personality kind of assessment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes. What are you, by the way, for the Myers-Briggs?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: I am INTJ.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Ah, amazing. You know what\u2019s crazy?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Yeah. I am INTJ.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yeah. As am I, by the way. We are like 1% or 2% of the population, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Oh, really?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes. I know. I was about to say that\u2019s super rare. No, but I find&nbsp;\u2026 First of all, I think that\u2019s absolutely hilarious because I think there\u2019s a healthy, natural skepticism around personality tests. I think we all like to think that we\u2019re special or we all like to think that everyone is kind of like us. It\u2019s usually one of the two or sometimes even a mix.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Right now I guess with your team how do you, as you lead Drift&nbsp;\u2026 Remind me how many employees that you are at today?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: We\u2019re 130 some odd. 130-ish. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Excellent. 130 some people. How do you think about very, perhaps a little bit more tactically with 130 people, communicating in a way where you\u2019ve got 130 people who are all over that Myers-Briggs test results, right? You\u2019ve got INTJs, you\u2019ve got ENFPs. How do you think about in your role as the CEO 130 people? Everyone needs a different communication style. What do you do in that situation?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/4edb4-1bfwa6mktmq_wawsutn8w0q.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: I think one thing that I discovered over the time was that the most scalable thing in terms of keeping all of this working as teams were scaling here and then previous companies was actually the one on one. The one on one, which inherently seems like the least scalable thing possible and is the first thing that everyone pushes aside because they don\u2019t have time for that was actually the key to actually scaling teams and helping make them effective.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In that context, the one on ones, we use a different set of personality tests but we talk a lot about Myers-Briggs and everyone knows that in a joking and posts their stuff and everybody wants to know what they are. Then we use something called Predictive Index, which is another flavor in this world. We use that in the hiring profile but as well as post-hiring to bring up these areas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>People are using this all the time internally even in their one on ones, kind of ongoing, and reminding themselves about it, \u201cWell, this is how we communicate to Emily and Claire likes to be communicated this way so I need to tailor my approach.\u201d It\u2019s an active thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I kind of think about most of this stuff as English gardening. If you want an English garden most of the work is actually the pruning and the taking care of. It\u2019s not the planting, it\u2019s not the plant selection. It\u2019s this constant pruning. The day that you stop pruning is the day that the garden is full of weeds and\u00a0overrun.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes. I love that analogy. I also love that analogy just in the sense that it\u2019s this idea of almost micro choices and actions that actually build a successful team. I think what a lot of people think about leadership, at least in how our society has thought of it, is it\u2019s bold action. It\u2019s big steps. It\u2019s crazy decisions in moments of crisis and that\u2019s what defines us as leaders.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Your take and what I\u2019m inferring here is it\u2019s actually the pruning. It\u2019s the small day to day actions. It\u2019s things you don\u2019t say and do say in those one on one conversations. I think that\u2019s incredibly valuable for the people listening. I guess&nbsp;\u2026 Go for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: I think just to pull on that thread there I think that I take it to the extreme. I think it\u2019s never the case that it\u2019s these big bold actions. That\u2019s a Hollywood myth. Now I\u2019ve been doing this long enough that I\u2019ve known tens of thousands of entrepreneurs and leaders. That has never been the case. That is a make-believe story that we tell ourselves and then we feel anxiety when leadership doesn\u2019t look like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s not like that. It\u2019s really a game of inches. It\u2019s just like these micro little things and if you do them over time and long enough then you wake up one day and it\u2019s magically this great result. It\u2019s so weird to me that for whatever reason in leadership, especially in this time, we think it\u2019s these big bold actions because it\u2019s never been the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you look at anything else in life it\u2019s never worked that way. There is no this big bang thing and then I\u2019m an Olympian athlete because I discovered some magic secret. It was starting at five years old and training for 10 years and then finding this overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. Yeah, it\u2019s that athlete that stays 30 minutes after practice but they do that every day for 12 years. That\u2019s what separates those super athletes from the rest of us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What would you say, David, are some of the other micro actions? Aside from communication and one on ones but other small nuances that you feel like most leaders don\u2019t take the time to make time for or they overlook. What are some things that we should be considering?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Yeah. To me, it all comes back to the people stuff. It\u2019s those one on ones. It\u2019s the spending time in the hiring practice. We\u2019re 130 right now and we are going to be around 200, add about 100 people this year, by the end of this year, to the team so we\u2019ll be about 220, 230. I\u2019m still involved in every one of those interviews.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Really?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/49007-1vv4pjevgmfbmckfugwi7dg.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Yeah. I\u2019m at the end of the chain so it\u2019s been very well-filtered by then so I\u2019m not taking the bulk of that but still it\u2019s 100 people that I\u2019m going to talk to. I find the way to make time, even if it\u2019s a 10 minute call, with those people because it\u2019s a super important part of the process. I think that\u2019s one of the first things that we\u2019re like, \u201cOh, we\u2019re 50 people now. I shouldn\u2019t be in the interview process.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like, no. You should be in the interview process for as long as possible. I\u2019m going to try and push that as far as possible and I think that\u2019s important. My co-founder is the same. He\u2019s involved in the process. If I\u2019m not there he\u2019s there or someone else on the team jumps in as well. It\u2019s a super important thing. I would not give that up for anything because a lot of it is that and then a lot of it is the one on one and then the other stuff takes care of itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Definitely. I think some CEOs that are probably running smaller companies are thinking, \u201cOh, shoot. Oh my gosh. Maybe I got to involve myself in that.\u201d David, what else would you say then&nbsp;\u2026 You said you had a big list of stuff so other than the people or the communication issues, anything else that&nbsp;\u2026 Here\u2019s the thing. You\u2019ve sat on numerous boards. You\u2019ve mentored so many entrepreneurs over the years. Any parting words or advice for any aspiring leader or current leader who feels like they\u2019re just struggling right now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Yeah. I\u2019d say we\u2019ve all been there. One thing I would say is basically I think about this triangle and I think there\u2019s three things that matter when it comes to your business. One is the market that you\u2019re in. Two is people. Three is your product or solution or your service or what have you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019m most comfortable when I come from the product side of things. That\u2019s where I come from. I kind of organize them first as market and then there\u2019s a big gap, and then it\u2019s like team\u200a\u2014\u200apeople\u200a\u2014\u200aand then there\u2019s product is third.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I always think about it in that order now but for the first half of my career I thought about it like most entrepreneurs do, which is the other way around, which is like it\u2019s all about the product, it\u2019s all around the service. No one ever thinks about the market. Like the market will will that to happen somehow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yeah, exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Then they kind of think about the people a little bit. It\u2019s kind of the opposite. It\u2019s like big markets that are changing that allow you to relook at them or allow you to create a niche within them. Think a lot about that. Think a lot about the team. Those are the two big levers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then the product, we\u2019ve all seen many examples. Not to say that we should aim for a mediocre product but great markets with great teams they can be mediocre products or not as good of a product that you can create that can own that market because those two things are true.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For us, engineers or geeks or what have you, we like to think about all the product, really the people, and that market that you\u2019re in. That\u2019s my advice. Really take a look at those two things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: I love that. I think what that speaks to is I think our desire as entrepreneurs, as leaders, to control. The product we can control it. Absolutely. We can build it. We can write about it. We can design it. It\u2019s within our control. People, oh my God, no. There\u2019s no way we can control in terms of people. Market? Forget about it. That is out of our control so we don\u2019t spend the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/c1df5-1v4bhkwhn3obva0psls0vmg.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: I think you nailed it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yeah. As humans, that\u2019s our natural tendency is we love to create any sort of semblance of control. That\u2019s why we like to plan. I\u2019m a big planner. I\u2019ve noticed this even in myself as a leader. It\u2019s like, Claire, you\u2019re trying to create this plan because you\u2019re trying to control for something that honestly you cannot control for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Can\u2019t control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right. It\u2019s great to come up with those contingency&nbsp;\u2026 I think I love that share of focus and realizing that just because you can\u2019t control it doesn\u2019t mean you shouldn\u2019t be spending the time and energy to think about it. Thanks for that, David.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One other thing that actually just came to mind. I was reading something on The Drift blog post recently. You had written a little bit about Peter Drucker, who is a seminal author of management. Love Peter Drucker. Who doesn\u2019t, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: One of the things that you talked about that he talks about and I absolutely loved was this idea of no consensus in leadership. I thought it was really counterintuitive. Yeah, I would love to actually talk a little bit about that with some of our viewers here. Tell us a little bit about what no consensus is and what you mean by that and why you were so passionate about this idea in leadership.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: One, I love Peter Drucker and we read a lot of Peter Drucker here. I\u2019m about going back to the greats. You can skip most business books and go to Peter Drucker because they\u2019re all derivative of him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yup. I agree.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: That you read out there today. That\u2019s where I would start. For us, no consensus, that idea really started with me with probably a decade ago, or maybe a little more, probably 15 years ago. Seth Godin who is another great writer, one of the marketing staff, had really wrote about picking an edge. What he would say is you\u2019ve got to pick an extreme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>You\u2019ve got to pick an edge. You can\u2019t be in the middle. Then what I learned on my own after having that in my mind was that in creating a company the worst thing that you wanted was indifference. That\u2019s what entrepreneurs battle in terms of creating a product is indifference.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s okay to have people love your product. That\u2019s awesome. It\u2019s also okay for people to hate your product because you can take someone who hates your product, who has an emotional connection to it, and move them closer to&nbsp;\u2026 You can move them to be fans. You can almost never move someone who is indifferent about something to be a fan.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Anyway, I had been thinking about that for a long time. One of our values here, we have eight, is no consensus. Consensus is the norm. We all regress to this idea of consensus within the company of, \u201cLet\u2019s all vote for something. Let\u2019s hold hands. Let\u2019s not be offensive. Let\u2019s not take an edge.\u201d I was all about picking an edge because that\u2019s where I think the great things are created and consensus by definition is averaging down to the least offensive, least controversial thing, which is just going to lead you into the center of indifference. You\u2019re just going to create something that nobody cares about, even the people that are creating it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For us, it\u2019s about picking an edge, going out there, getting a reaction from that even if it\u2019s sometimes not the reaction that you wanted. Like people don\u2019t love it but at least you can work from that because you\u2019ve actually hit on something that they are connected to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I find this concept so fascinating because I think a lot of entrepreneurs would agree and for folks who are starting successful businesses they reflect on their own product and they go, \u201cOh, we are doing well because we\u2019ve picked an edge.\u201d I think the tension in this concept of no consensus happens when we think internally with our teams about collaborating and moving forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In so many teams and CEOs that we\u2019ve worked with there\u2019s always this fascinating dynamic and conflict between how do you pick that edge but at the same time get people on your team not to kill each other and be bitter about the fact that it\u2019s not their idea, it\u2019s not maybe their edge?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: You know how I do that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yeah. How do you negotiate that? For folks who are like, \u201cBut David, you can\u2019t collaborate. How do you make decisions if you\u2019re always picking the edge? Aren\u2019t people going to get pissed off and leave?\u201d Yeah. I\u2019d love to hear your thoughts on that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/2a365-1oqfaz81pdzoscyy8rrm3hg.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: I stumbled on the answer back at Performable, which is like two companies ago, by accident. The answer that we\u2019ve been using since then is this idea to create this customer-centric approach to building anything. We\u2019ve taken it so far adrift that everyone and this is a kind of daily mantra here is that we tell everyone, including ourselves, that your idea and my idea is wrong. 100%.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The only thing we know for sure is that whatever idea we have is wrong. What we need to figure out now is we need to get out and work with our customers to figure out how wrong. It might be 5% off. It always is. It\u2019s never you just create something and divine inspiration and then that\u2019s the thing and it never changes. There\u2019s always going to be a tweak to it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Or it could be 100% off. It\u2019s usually somewhere in between those two extremes. Why not get out there? Work with our customers from the very beginning to figure out how off we are. What we\u2019re trying to do by doing that is to break down our collective egos, our personal and collective egos, and get out there and get over this part of, \u201cWell, we can\u2019t collaborate. We can\u2019t do this stuff because we all are defaulted to say&nbsp;\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Back to what Peter Drucker would say, the only goal of business is to serve a customer, right? We\u2019re only here to serve. It doesn\u2019t matter what Claire\u2019s idea is or my idea or this person\u2019s idea. What matters is what does the customer need? How do we best serve\u00a0that?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: The only one who can tell us that is that customer. Not us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>David: We\u2019re never the customer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: I love that approach in, like you were saying, taking the ego, the personal or collective ego, out of it because I think that is&nbsp;\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: It\u2019s hard.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It\u2019s so hard. I think it\u2019s a huge reason for why a lot of decisions or a lot of progress isn\u2019t made. I think helping to depersonalize any sort of potential source of conflict is huge. Then something interesting that I\u2019d love to get your thoughts on is one approach as well when you think about consensus and collaboration or how do you build consensus when there\u2019s conflict, is this idea that, yes, we\u2019re all trying to serve the customer but also we can agree to move forward but not even have to agree on the same things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I might move forward because I feel like I want to give this idea a shot and another person might move forward because, \u201cNo, this is actually going to be the thing that really helps us win as a company\u201d. Whatever it is. We can move forward for different reasons and everyone actually doesn\u2019t even have to move forward for the same reason as long as we can move forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Just accepting that there\u2019s some plurality in that decision making process when you\u2019re trying to find that edge. I could not agree more with you and I think it is such a hard and messy thing in practice. It really is. At least from what I\u2019ve observed. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: This is why it\u2019s all about people. Back to the beginning. It\u2019s 99% people. It\u2019s this. It\u2019s like the ego stuff is a daily battle. In terms of pruning that\u2019s mostly pruning all day. Including myself. Including everyone in the company. No one is immune from this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019d say at the beginning of this year I sent out a letter to the team that I wrote up, like a shareholder\u2019s style of a letter, and I looked back at all the great stuff. It was an amazing year. I look back and I say, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s talk about the top five mistakes that I think we made as a team.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I traced back and I said, \u201cI think every single one of these mistakes\u201d and I highlighted how, \u201cWere due to ego.\u201d Every single time we made a mistake it was due to our collective ego.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I traced back and I said, \u201cI think every single one of these mistakes\u201d and I highlighted how, \u201cWere due to ego.\u201d Every single time we made a mistake it was due to our collective ego.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What I\u2019m trying to point out there is we made these mistakes. We don\u2019t need to make these mistakes and we didn\u2019t need to make any of the mistakes we did if we didn\u2019t let our egos get in the way. How do we get better so that we don\u2019t let our ego get in the way in 2018?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I think on that note that is a beautiful reflection that I\u2019m going to be taking away from this interview. That\u2019s for sure. I think for everyone watching there\u2019s so much wisdom that you shared, David. Thank you so much for your time. This has been a blast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David<\/strong>: Thank you so much for having me, Claire. I\u2019m a big fan. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/07a55-1wdclpejz0speryboxscfrw.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"newsletter-post-form-container\">\n  <h3>Never miss a post \u2013&nbsp;get our latest leadership insights, as they&#8217;re released&#8230;<\/h3>\n\n<iframe src=\"https:\/\/newsletter.canopy.is\/embed\" width=\"850\" height=\"150\" style=\"border:1px solid #EEE; background:white;\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div>\n<br\/>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><a href=\"http:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=banner&amp;utm_content=footer\"><img decoding=\"async\" width=\"2516\" height=\"944\" src=\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/02\/CleanShot-2023-02-09-at-19.36.32@2x.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-7971\"\/><\/a><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>David Cancel&nbsp;is the CEO of&nbsp;Drift, a conversational sales platform that has over 100,000 customers. Having started five companies previously, David shares lessons learned as a leader \u2013&nbsp;including the importance of people, one-on-ones, and \u201cno consensus\u201d in teams. Claire: Hi, everyone. I\u2019m\u00a0Claire Lew\u00a0and I\u2019m the CEO of Canopy (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). Today we&hellip; <\/p>\n<p><a class=\"moretag\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift\/\">Read the full article<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":349,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/chtbl.com\/track\/D44D5\/https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/david-cancel.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"22:47","filesize":"20.86M","date_recorded":"26-04-2018","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"19","itunes_title":"Interview with David Cancel, CEO of Drift","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","filesize_raw":"21875146"},"tags":[],"series":[3529],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/2a365-1oqfaz81pdzoscyy8rrm3hg.png","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/plugins\/seriously-simple-podcasting\/assets\/images\/no-album-art.png","download_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-download\/1501\/episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1501\/episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift.mp3","audio_player":"<!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1501-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1501\/episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1501\/episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift.mp3\">https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1501\/episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/the-heartbeat","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"YBXs2aiJfz\"><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift\/\">Episode 19: Interview with David Cancel, CEO of Drift<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-19-interview-with-david-cancel-ceo-of-drift\/embed\/#?secret=YBXs2aiJfz\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Episode 19: Interview with David Cancel, CEO of Drift&#8221; &#8212; Canopy | Blog\" data-secret=\"YBXs2aiJfz\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! 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