{"id":1477,"date":"2019-01-25T23:08:39","date_gmt":"2019-01-25T23:08:39","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=1477"},"modified":"2025-04-21T15:15:10","modified_gmt":"2025-04-21T22:15:10","slug":"episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe width=\"1400\" height=\"788\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/0pf7P4hB3_U?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\"><br><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-as-the-vp-engineering-of-slack-and-prolific-author-on-technical-leadership-michael-discusses-why-being-busy-is-a-bad-thing-as-a-leader-and-how-to-delegate-well\">As the VP Engineering of Slack and prolific author on technical leadership, Michael discusses why being busy is a bad thing as a leader and how to delegate&nbsp;well.<\/h4>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Hi everyone. I\u2019m\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/clairelew.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Claire Lew<\/a>, and I\u2019m the CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=post&amp;utm_campaign=heartbeat-podcast\">Canopy<\/a> (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company) and today I\u2019ve got a very special guest. I have with me\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/rands\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Michael Lopp<\/a>, who might be better known to some of you on the internet as\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/randsinrepose.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Rands<\/a>, and he is the VP of Engineering at\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/slack.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Slack<\/a>, and is someone who\u2026 we met at, what, a conference, I think we\u2019d both spoken at, maybe a few years ago and spoken at the same conference a few years ago. Yeah, I know, it\u2019s been a while.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Loved what you had to say, and Michael has done some just incredible writing and he\u2019s written a book on managing people, I believe it\u2019s called \u201cManaging Humans,\u201d in addition to just being a real advocate about thinking really thoughtfully for how to manage teams, especially engineering teams. And so, a real pleasure to have you today, Michael, and I\u2019m excited to ask you this one question about leadership.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Michael<\/strong>: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. It\u2019s a lovely Friday and looking forward to talking with you too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Cool. So the one question I have for you, Michael, is what\u2019s one thing that you wish that you would\u2019ve learned earlier as a leader?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Michael<\/strong>: It\u2019s a really easy question. I thought you guys would make it a hardball here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Oh good, whew.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Michael<\/strong>: But it\u2019s a really easy one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Good.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Michael<\/strong>: The thing I wish I\u2019d learned and it\u2019s something that I look for in all emerging leaders\u200a\u2014\u200ait sounds really simple but it\u2019s a very complex action\u200a\u2014\u200ais delegation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The act of delegation for a manager or a senior manager or an experienced manager is just this real solid power move because it\u2019s about giving up something that you might love to\u00a0do.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And we are trained as individuals to like, \u201cThis is my thing, I got to deliver on it, and I got to know about it,\u201d and this sort of thing, and you become a manager and suddenly your job is to give away your Legos and give away your toys. And that\u2019s just hard. It\u2019s just hard because you know you can do great on it if you were hands-on, and you just see a lot of really strange, really backwards leadership behaviors of people, who half-delegate or try to micromanage. Micromanagement is the act of not delegating.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There\u2019s all of those things that go on, when someone\u2019s not really delegating well. That, I\u2019ve just been screwing up for decades by the way. That it\u2019s really interesting to see that moment when I watch a manager or someone just say, \u201cHey, I know I can get an A on this doing it myself, but I\u2019m going to give it to the team, and I\u2019m pretty sure it\u2019s going to be a B, but that\u2019s okay. Because I\u2019m not responsible for getting it back to an A.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because they\u2019ve never done it before, or whatever the reasons are. And maybe they get an A, who knows. But, watching them do that, it\u2019s just a fundamental move of selflessness. And it\u2019s a fundamental move of trusting the team. And they know that you\u2019re giving them the thing, like \u201cWhoa! I\u2019m not really ready to do this.\u201d And that\u2019s cool. That\u2019s awesome. That\u2019s like my job is to help you to do that incredible work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that delegation thing, is one of the first things I look for in managers. And I say this answer many times, because I\u2019m just like, this is how I will know that you are&nbsp;\u2026 you understand a job of management and leadership.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I mean, you said that it\u2019s something that sort of took you decades to learn. Was there a moment that caused you&nbsp;\u2026 or something that happened where you went, \u201cWow, I\u2019m messing up my role as a manager because I\u2019m not willing to delegate.\u201d And what do you think is the thing that holds people back from giving that&nbsp;\u2026 passing something on to the team?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Michael<\/strong>: Yeah, the first question is, \u201cWhen did I know?\u201d I had this that, it\u2019s just really in the last couple of years I realized, and being a leading indicator that I\u2019m not delegating enough, and it\u2019s when I\u2019m busy. When someone sends me an email and says \u201cOh, I know you\u2019re super busy.\u201d I go, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>And if I ever am busy, I\u2019m failing as a leader because I\u2019m\u00a0<em>shouldn\u2019t be\u00a0<\/em>busy. My job is to run the team well, and me being busy, it\u2019s a fundamentally inefficient state. When I feel really busy, it means I\u2019ve got too much on my plate. There\u2019s something upstream from what I signed up to do or something where I\u2019m like I am doing too\u00a0much.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And it\u2019s not that I don\u2019t like being busy and getting things done. It\u2019s that I\u2019m setting the example that I don\u2019t have time for my team, or that I already have stuff to do. And that\u2019s bad, and they start to thing that\u2019s the way you\u2019re supposed to work. And that\u2019s not a go to way to work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that\u2019s how I know, is when I\u2019m like, \u201cOh, I\u2019ve got too many things.\u201d But the thing is, even with experience comes doing too many things. It\u2019s like, \u201cThere\u2019s just certain projects I love to do.\u201d It\u2019s why engineers struggle sometimes with management because they just love coding because it\u2019s such a satisfying act of building.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/2bd18-1iadgd0t_yrocbwqxsgy8zw.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>So the thing that I messed up is, \u201cOh, God this is such a Lopp-shaped task.\u201d And like, \u201cIt\u2019s perfect, and I will have great coding doing this for the next three weeks.\u201d And it\u2019s selfish. Because someone else should learn how to do that same thing. And learn that joy that I got when I did it. But when I screw it up is almost always when I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019ll just do this one thing.\u201d No, you should give that to Julia, you should give that to Ross. And let them run with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I think what you\u2019re describing, the sort of, awareness that keeping something for yourself is inherently a selfish act. I think that\u2019s a hard realization for a lot of leaders. Because like you said, it\u2019s fun. I reflect on things that I do at Canopy where we\u2019ve hired other folks on and I\u2019ve been like, \u201cDo I want to give that to that person, because I actually kind like it.\u201d Right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Or something I think you eluded to earlier is this fear about quality.&nbsp;? And when do you know that something is going to be good enough, but I think something that you also touched on is that, it\u2019s the role of the leader to make sure and say, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s get this from a B to an A.\u201d Or even to be pleasantly surprised, right? That it is going to maybe turn out to be an A.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So as a leader what are things that we should be thinking about and doing to, when we do delegate, to put that person into a good position? To put that person into a position of success. I\u2019m going to safely assume that you\u2019re not just saying, okay just assign out task. And then just leave people to the wolves. There\u2019s some coaching involved and some context that you give. Tell me a little bit about that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Michael<\/strong>: It\u2019s another early leadership move you got to know, which is read the room. Understanding the people that you have, the team that you have, and the individuals that you have. I have a profile for everyone one of my direct reports. And it\u2019s something we\u2019ve talked about. I have a leadership rubric and these are the things I\u2019m looking for out of my leaders. And these are the clauses, and we have an understanding. We talk about, \u201cHey these are the things you\u2019re amazing at, and things we\u2019re working on.\u201d So lesson number one is, know the people and teams that you have.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And number two is, as this work, just kind of flows across your desk, it\u2019s like okay, is this a Ross thing, is this a Julia thing, is that a Frank thing? Whatever. And going on okay, who should it go to, who\u2019s going to get the most learning out of this. And then, based on what I know about the person and the teams, it\u2019s like okay well what do I need to do in terms of framing, in terms of coaching, in terms of setting expectations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And, obviously that varies from just throw it over the fence because Julia, she\u2019s got it. I just trust her to do those things. Or give it to Frank. And this is going to be, I\u2019m going to weekly touch ins. Or I\u2019m going to write up a spec right out of the gate and be a little be more directive. It just depends on what the person needs and how they need to grow, and where you\u2019re at with them in terms of their professional growth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. I think sometimes, something I know a lot of CEO\u2019s and founders that we work with, and that I speak to, sometimes find difficulty in that line between delegating effectively and providing context, so that person doesn\u2019t sink and drown. Versus micromanaging. And maybe checking in too much, or telling the person how to do it. Or imposing their own processes or tastes on how this person is going to do something. How\u2019s a leader, especially when maybe you coach other managers&nbsp;\u2026 do you try to let people know, here\u2019s when you give enough information, here\u2019s when you need to back off and give people that space to at least do the job.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/a9419-1zdhnmbzttnp2tpgiqqec4g.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Michael<\/strong>: Let\u2019s first concede that micromanagement has a leadership skill of super bad. And regardless of how things were set up or how things were staged, what the relationship is&nbsp;\u2026 if you\u2019re on the receiving end micromanagement, you\u2019re just like, \u201cOh, I failed.\u201d It doesn\u2019t matter. It\u2019s like, \u201cI failed.\u201d They feel that, the boss is showing up all the time, duh, duh, duh. So let\u2019s put that over there. Micromanagement, bad.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Highly directive and constructive feedback. Intense involvement. I realize it sounds like I\u2019m saying exactly the same thing as micromanagement. It\u2019s not. Because it\u2019s around the intent. Micromanagement is, like I know you failed and now here I come to save you. What I\u2019m talking about these other words is, \u201cHey okay I\u2019m dialing it up because I sense directionally, we are headed in the wrong direction here.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Or it\u2019s a subjective thing, it involves tastes, like you say. And I see we\u2019re kind of headed in this other direction, and I want to weigh in on this sort of thing. There\u2019s this nuance of intent to be pulling in the different kinds of direction you going to go to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re in a really good state with a team and you have high trust. When you come in there and act like a micromanager or something like that, they\u2019re not seeing, \u201c This is failure\u201d and \u201cLopp is mad\u201d or blah, blah, blah. They\u2019re seeing, \u201cOh he\u2019s here to help. I\u2019m going to come and coach folks. I\u2019m going to come in and be there.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>It\u2019s how you\u2019re presenting that highly directive leadership, that I think is the demoralizing situation, or this coaching situation. It\u2019s totally different and you know when you\u2019re giving hard feedback to someone. You know this is a moment that you\u2019re either going to demoralize or you\u2019re going to build\u00a0trust.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s super hard. Feedback is like one of the hardest things a manager can do. And it\u2019s how you\u2019re delivering it. Everything you said before that&nbsp;\u2026 the things that you\u2019re saying there are sort of the difference between making a positive versus a negative interaction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. It\u2019s such a hard balance to find. And I think your description of thinking about how you build trust versus how you avoid it being a demoralizing situation. It all, I think, comes down to, definitely intent is a huge part. And I also think, and I think this is implied in what you responded, the way that you provide that feedback, right? It\u2019s not just telling that person this sucks, here\u2019s why. You should\u2019ve done it this way. But asking questions, that say, can you tell me a little bit about why. Do you mind if I share why I think it could\u2019ve been like this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Just different ways to build the person up versus tearing them done. So I think that\u2019s really really helpful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I guess my last thought here, or the thing that I\u2019m curious to know is, for managers who are first time managers, and they\u2019re flexing this new muscle of delegating. What advise do you have for them to get more comfortable with this? Because personally, it\u2019s a very uncomfortable thing, as someone who you spend the majority of your career being the individual contributor, building pride in your craft, and now, your saying stop doing those things and actually give it up. What advise do you have for folks who are just getting into that, to become more comfortable with this skill?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/9f402-1ylghwvjblwqc4ftnkygbiw.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Michael<\/strong>: That\u2019s a really good question. I have this talk I give called \u201c<a href=\"http:\/\/randsinrepose.com\/archives\/the-new-manager-death-spiral\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The New Manager Death Spiral<\/a>\u201d. And what I do is, I take any bad incident that I made and I stitch it together into this awful horrible story of&nbsp;\u2026 and it\u2019s about delegation, but it\u2019s really kind of about trust and respect. And I just walk you down as a new manager to the worst place you can be. And I wrote that talk just because I\u2019ve seen all these new managers struggle with parts of that, not the whole thing. They would never do it in this cascading series of awful steps.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the reason I do it, is to describe, and I exaggerate it a bit, to describe the consequences of not doing well. And to also put the&nbsp;\u2026 and I talk a lot about how the team is seeing you during this death spiral, to kind of, both remind them of what they were like when they were an individual. And also, how they see managers and some of the trials and tribulations and the assumptions there. Just to give them that other perspective.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because I think what new managers, myself included when I did this long ago, is they assume there\u2019s power that you\u2019re granted, when you become a manager. And there\u2019s some things there, like comp or performance reviews or whatever.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>But nothing is granted. It\u2019s all earned. It\u2019s all responsibility to be earned. And you earn them by them trust you. So delegation and some other things as well, which are these things that are these trust building maneuvers.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And when you understand that that\u2019s the currency that you\u2019re building, with these folks, and it\u2019 not a switch that says \u201cI\u2019m a Manager.\u201d This hat that says \u201cManager\u201d on it. It\u2019s the responsibility you build over time, this it makes it a little more approachable and little less scary. That\u2019s one way to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. No, I love that. I think focusing on trust and thinking of it as this currency to people to delegate well. And that\u2019s really the means of which how well that situation is actually going to go, how well are you building trust, how well are building that rapport. That makes total sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, Michael, thank you so much for your time. This is incredible. I\u2019ve learned a lot. Like I said, really respect your work and so thanks so much for participating.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Michael<\/strong>: Absolutely. Thank you very much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/ef90a-1xnstgnwerug9y-idap98eg.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"newsletter-post-form-container\">\n  <h3>Never miss a post \u2013&nbsp;get our latest leadership insights, as they&#8217;re released&#8230;<\/h3>\n\n<iframe src=\"https:\/\/newsletter.canopy.is\/embed\" width=\"850\" height=\"150\" style=\"border:1px solid #EEE; background:white;\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div>\n<br\/>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><a href=\"http:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=banner&amp;utm_content=footer\"><img decoding=\"async\" width=\"2516\" height=\"944\" src=\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/02\/CleanShot-2023-02-09-at-19.36.32@2x.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-7971\"\/><\/a><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>As the VP Engineering of Slack and prolific author on technical leadership, Michael discusses why being busy is a bad thing as a leader and how to delegate&nbsp;well. Claire: Hi everyone. I\u2019m\u00a0Claire Lew, and I\u2019m the CEO of Canopy (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company) and today I\u2019ve got a very special guest. I have&hellip; <\/p>\n<p><a class=\"moretag\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/\">Read the full article<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":488,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/chtbl.com\/track\/D44D5\/https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/KYT011.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"14:46","filesize":"13.52M","date_recorded":"07-12-2017","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"11","itunes_title":"Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","filesize_raw":"14174248"},"tags":[],"series":[3529],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/plugins\/seriously-simple-podcasting\/assets\/images\/no-album-art.png","download_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-download\/1477\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1477\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack.mp3","audio_player":"<!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1477-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1477\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1477\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack.mp3\">https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1477\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/the-heartbeat","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"EQQrNmmGYe\"><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/\">Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/embed\/#?secret=EQQrNmmGYe\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack&#8221; &#8212; Canopy | Blog\" data-secret=\"EQQrNmmGYe\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/* ]]> *\/\n<\/script>\n"},"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO Premium plugin v20.1 (Yoast SEO v22.4) - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=0pf7P4hB3_U As the VP Engineering of Slack and prolific author on technical leadership, Michael discusses why being busy\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Canopy | Blog\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:publisher\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/knowyourteamhq\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2025-04-21T22:15:10+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"600\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"305\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/png\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:site\" content=\"@KnowYourTeamHQ\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"13 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/\",\"name\":\"Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#website\"},\"primaryImageOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#primaryimage\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png\",\"datePublished\":\"2019-01-25T23:08:39+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2025-04-21T22:15:10+00:00\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#primaryimage\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png\",\"width\":600,\"height\":305},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Episode\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":3,\"name\":\"Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/\",\"name\":\"Canopy | Blog\",\"description\":\"Thoughts on how to become a better leader, and avoid being a bad boss.\",\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#organization\"},\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Organization\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#organization\",\"name\":\"Know Your Team\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/\",\"logo\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/Artboard-1@2x.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/Artboard-1@2x.png\",\"width\":1024,\"height\":1024,\"caption\":\"Know Your Team\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\"},\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/knowyourteamhq\",\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/KnowYourTeamHQ\",\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/knowyourteamhq\/\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/channel\/UCLmMSaIY8JfjiJnwYSfYeuA\"]}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO Premium plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack","og_description":"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=0pf7P4hB3_U As the VP Engineering of Slack and prolific author on technical leadership, Michael discusses why being busy","og_url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/","og_site_name":"Canopy | Blog","article_publisher":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/knowyourteamhq","article_modified_time":"2025-04-21T22:15:10+00:00","og_image":[{"width":600,"height":305,"url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png","type":"image\/png"}],"twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_site":"@KnowYourTeamHQ","twitter_misc":{"Est. reading time":"13 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/","url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/","name":"Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#website"},"primaryImageOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#primaryimage"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png","datePublished":"2019-01-25T23:08:39+00:00","dateModified":"2025-04-21T22:15:10+00:00","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/"]}]},{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#primaryimage","url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png","width":600,"height":305},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-11-interview-with-michael-lopp-vp-engineering-at-slack\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Episode","item":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":3,"name":"Episode 11: Interview with Michael Lopp, VP Engineering at Slack"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#website","url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/","name":"Canopy | Blog","description":"Thoughts on how to become a better leader, and avoid being a bad boss.","publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#organization"},"potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#organization","name":"Know Your Team","url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/Artboard-1@2x.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/Artboard-1@2x.png","width":1024,"height":1024,"caption":"Know Your Team"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/"},"sameAs":["https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/knowyourteamhq","https:\/\/twitter.com\/KnowYourTeamHQ","https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/knowyourteamhq\/","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/channel\/UCLmMSaIY8JfjiJnwYSfYeuA"]}]}},"rttpg_featured_image_url":{"full":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png",600,305,false],"landscape":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png",600,305,false],"portraits":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png",600,305,false],"thumbnail":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw-150x150.png",150,150,true],"medium":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw-300x153.png",300,153,true],"large":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png",600,305,false],"1536x1536":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png",600,305,false],"2048x2048":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6911d-1dfix7mzufqzai_sb4vjyuw.png",600,305,false]},"rttpg_author":{"display_name":"Claire Lew","author_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/author\/claire\/"},"rttpg_comment":0,"rttpg_category":false,"rttpg_excerpt":"As the VP Engineering of Slack and prolific author on technical leadership, Michael discusses why being busy is a bad thing as a leader and how to delegate&nbsp;well. Claire: Hi everyone. I\u2019m\u00a0Claire Lew, and I\u2019m the CEO of Canopy (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company) and today I\u2019ve got a very special guest. I have&hellip;&hellip;","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/1477"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1477"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/488"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1477"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1477"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=1477"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}