{"id":1465,"date":"2019-01-25T22:49:27","date_gmt":"2019-01-25T22:49:27","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=1465"},"modified":"2025-04-21T10:41:48","modified_gmt":"2025-04-21T17:41:48","slug":"episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 7: Interview with David Heinemeier Hansson, CTO of Basecamp &#038; Creator of Ruby on Rails"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"The Heartbeat Interview: David Heinemeier Hansson, Creator of Ruby on Rails &amp; CTO at Basecamp\" width=\"1400\" height=\"788\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/N_9VQbYY2cI?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-as-the-creator-of-ruby-on-rails-and-founder-cto-of-basecamp-david-heinemeier-hansson-shares-with-me-what-he-wishes-he-learned-earlier-as-a-leader\">As the Creator of Ruby on Rails and Founder &amp; CTO of Basecamp,&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/dhh\">David Heinemeier Hansson<\/a> shares with me what he wishes he learned earlier as a leader. <\/h4>\n\n\n\n<p>We chat about empathy, illusions of disagreement, and why <g class=\"gr_ gr_4 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Grammar only-ins replaceWithoutSep\" id=\"4\" data-gr-id=\"4\">best<\/g> intentions are bullshit. Listen or watch the full interview&#8230;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Hi, everyone. I\u2019m\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/cjlew23\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Claire Lew<\/a>, and I\u2019m the CEO of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=post&amp;utm_campaign=heartbeat-podcast\">Canopy<\/a> (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). Today, I\u2019ve got a super special guest with me. I\u2019ve got\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/dhh\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">David Heinemeier Hansson<\/a>\u00a0who is the co-founder of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/basecamp.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Basecamp<\/a>, along with the founder of\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/rubyonrails.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Ruby on Rails<\/a>, which I feel like half the internet is built on, including Canopy. I\u2019m lucky because David actually sits on our board, so we\u2019ve gotten to work pretty closely over the past few years. I know I\u2019ve personally benefited as a CEO from a lot of your insights. I\u2019m excited to have you here and ask you this one question about leadership.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Awesome. I can\u2019t wait to be surprised.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes haha. Hopefully, it\u2019s a question that you\u2019re ready for. My question for you, David, is:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What\u2019s something you wish you would have learned earlier as a leader?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Yes, wow, that\u2019s a good question. There\u2019s definitely tons of things. I think one, I got exposed to, early on, from leadership training was the negative end of it. I got to see a lot of really poor leadership. I got to see a lot of poor management, and I learned a lot from that, but there weren\u2019t so many positive examples from that to draw from. I mean it\u2019s great to learn what not to do, but it\u2019s also sometimes good to have some idea of what works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/ea751-1utzg86ghurbk6paid1pqug.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: I think one of the early principles I took from that was just like, oh, I experienced all these bad leadership moments where I\u2019m like, \u201cAt least I\u2019m not going to do that.\u201d Let me just try to be more authentic in the way that I\u2019m acting as a leader, which means how would I like to be treated, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Mm-hmm<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: That was where a lot of it got driven forward. I just got it going in that group and thinking like, \u201cWell, at least if I\u2019m acting in ways where if I was on the other side of the table, I would feel good about it.\u201d That\u2019s good, right? I think that goes a long way. That goes, I don\u2019t know, half the way maybe, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Then, the other half of the way is then realizing not everyone is like you. Not everyone would react the same way as you would in a certain situation. So you can feel like what we put in forward or what we\u2019re talking about, \u201cI\u2019m being fair. I\u2019m being on top of it, of whatever because I\u2019m putting myself on the other side.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>But I\u2019m putting\u00a0<em>myself<\/em>\u00a0on the other side. I\u2019m not putting the person necessarily that I\u2019m talking to on the other\u00a0side.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I think that, that was probably one of the things that I had to just learn. To see that there are different reactions, that I could propose things or talk to people in a certain way or try to inspire people in a certain way that I knew I would have reacted well to just through the experiences that I\u2019ve had. Then, it didn\u2019t work for whatever reason because the person on the other end of this was not&nbsp;<em>me<\/em>. It was someone else. They had different sensibilities. They had different things that they responded well to. I think sometimes, early on at least, that led to some frustration like, \u201cWhy can\u2019t you just get it?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Like, \u201cThis should work.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Exactly. This should have worked. I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019m being unreasonable. I don\u2019t feel like it, because again, I\u2019m putting myself on the other side. I\u2019m trying to be empathetic to my own mirror image, which is not actually a very good definition of empathy. You should get into the other person\u2019s shoes, right. I\u2019m trying to get into my own role somewhere else, which, I think, is one good influence, but it\u2019s certainly not the only one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Having just to picking up more on who\u2019s on the other side and picking up on that, it\u2019s not just like someone is not me. It\u2019s that, that person is different from another person. It\u2019s different from another person. The way you talk to people, the way you try to motivate them, the way you try to inspire them, they\u2019re going to be different. Even within the large group of people that are not me.There\u2019s all these other individuals.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It sounds to obvious, but I think it\u2019s harder to summarize in just an essay here or single thing or just like, \u201cOh, you should do things this way.\u201d For then some number of people who respond well to that avenue, that\u2019s going to be totally the right thing, and there\u2019s just the people who don\u2019t. In some cases, it\u2019s like the exact opposite that works for one group of people that doesn\u2019t work for another group of people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Totally. I think it\u2019s so interesting because to your point of it sounding obvious, treat people the way you would like to be treated, right? Oh, duh, so obvious, and yet, it\u2019s absolutely not because your point is it takes some nuance and awareness to realize that, \u201cOkay, every person isn\u2019t like me. They don\u2019t have the same experiences, tendencies, personality.\u201d I think, I mean personally, when I\u2019m thinking about running <a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=post&amp;utm_campaign=heartbeat-podcast\">Canopy<\/a>, it can be hard to feel that way because you\u2019re in your own bubble of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean for you, personally, was there a moment that happened in the past, 10, 15 years since you\u2019re running Basecamp where it stared you in the face? You\u2019re like, \u201cOh, wow. I think I\u2019m putting myself on the other side and not actually thinking about them and not me.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Yes, I\u2019m trying to think of a specific scenario.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes, go ahead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/15597-1j609bg8kvi3kn7wgt4lf-a.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: I\u2019m trying to think of specific characteristics. I have a high sense of urgency. One of the things that help in this is to get a vocabulary to talk about personality differences and traits and leanings. We did, at Basecamp a while back\u2026 I don\u2019t know what it was called. They never called personality test or whatever, right? That\u2019s another thing. It\u2019s an assessment\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Is it a&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/strengths.gallup.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">StrengthsFinder<\/a>&nbsp;thing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Yes! StrengthsFinder is one of them, and we\u2019ve done another. We used to have an assessment we did with new hires that was even more in-depth than strengths finder, but let\u2019s just say StrengthsFinder, for example, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Okay, cool. Yes, the StrengthsFinder.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Yes, so StrengthsFinder, that I have a high level of urgency. I then have a lower score on thoroughness, and those things are frequently in conflict. There are other people in the company that have relatively low levels of urgency and very high levels of thoroughness. They really want to make sure that all the Is are dotted and T\u2019s striped or whatever that\u2019s called or something. Sometimes, there\u2019s a tension there, right? I do get a problem or I do get a project and go like, \u201cWe could ship this in two weeks.\u201d They go like, \u201cUhhh, what are you talking about?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: No, no, no.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: No.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: No way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: It\u2019s not because we\u2019re looking at things differently in the sense of how much hourly input in there needs to be. When I think of, \u201cWe can ship this in two weeks,\u201d I\u2019m not thinking, \u201cOh, we could ship this in two weeks if we work 120 hours and weekends and whatever.\u201d I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWe could ship this in two weeks because I will cut this corner, that corner and this corner.\u201d I\u2019ll end up with a smaller problem that I need to solve in two weeks that I can solve that in 40 hours a week. Versus there are other people in the company who have a much higher level of thoroughness that will think through all these other, \u201cWell, what about this edge case? What about that edge case? What about this edge case,\u201d right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Those edge cases are totally valid. It\u2019s just in many cases, I\u2019m just willing to trade off. That\u2019s like, \u201cAh, let\u2019s just launch and see what happens,\u201d because when we launch, it might not be worth it at all. Then, you could have solved all those edge cases for something that just isn\u2019t done. It doesn\u2019t go anywhere, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think even between&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/jasonfried\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Jason<\/a>&nbsp;(my co-founder at Basecamp) and I, we often have some of this tension because we have different sensibilities around these. Jason happens to have also have a very high level of urgency, so there, we have some common denominator thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Okay, alignment, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: We have other sensibilities around experiments and how far or how much to invest upfront in experiment. I have a very relatively low tolerance. I want to put in the least amount I can to just get a trial going, and Jason\u2019s offering more like, \u201cNo, that won\u2019t be a proper trial. You have to round it up more. You have to spend more time on it. Otherwise, you won\u2019t get a viable result.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There\u2019s just all these inherent traits of thoroughness or urgency that are intentions. You can often come into these illusions of disagreement or of tension or whatever because people are coming from different angles.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>When I say like, \u201cOh, we could ship this in two weeks,\u201d and someone goes\u00a0, \u201cWhat the fuck are you talking about? No, no, we couldn\u2019t do that.\u201d We\u2019re just not talking about the same thing. You\u2019re talking about a version of the project that is embellished in all sorts of ways, to deal with all these edge cases. It\u2019s completely reasonable to talk about that. I\u2019m talking about the version that I have in my head that has half of it cut off and two-thirds of it just stopped out to get something out\u00a0there.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s just one example of something where you can get into conflict or tension or miss each other because you\u2019re coming at it from different angles. The way that I\u2019m posting things, I\u2019m trying to talk to myself, because that\u2019s the first bar to clear anything. Most people don\u2019t even clear that bar, right? They\u2019re not treating others like they would be wanted to be treated themselves. But if you clear that bar, then, the next level is well, you have to treat others like&nbsp;<em>they<\/em>&nbsp;would want to be treated.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Not just like how&nbsp;<em>you<\/em>&nbsp;would want to be treated, which requires all that additional level of empathy and insight into, \u201cWho are they? What are their strengths? What are their sensibilities? What do they respond to?\u201d Once you unlock that, it\u2019s just, everything becomes a lot easier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean it\u2019s not even once you\u2019ve unlocked that because you\u2019ll never&nbsp;<em>truly<\/em>&nbsp;unlock that. But at least if you\u2019re trying, you\u2019re making an effort to understand who the recipient is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes, absolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: It\u2019s funny because I frequently have just internal tension with that like in my writing. You would think some writers think like, \u201cOh, think about the reader and what would they like\u201d\u2026 I never do that. The only way I can write in a productive manner is to think about myself on the other side.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Write for yourself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: What would I want to read? Again, that just tops out at some level. I\u2019m sure that\u2019s restrictive in some levels, and there are ways. Perhaps some of the messages that we have could reach broader if we were better and more capable of writing for other people, not just for ourselves. I accept that limitation in my writing. I try not to accept that limitation in leadership and management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure. Well, and that was literally like the next question I wanted to ask when you brought this topic up. Because I completely agree that I think as a leader, there is almost, sometimes, this fine line between wanting to push the company forward and lead your team and inspire folks in a way where it\u2019s catering very much to the individual taste and preferences of every employee. Is there a line too where you shouldn\u2019t do that or can\u2019t do that, or in a case of you can\u2019t make everyone in the company happy, right, or where you can\u2019t fulfill every person and present something in a way where every person who\u200a\u2014\u200awhether they\u2019re more thorough or they have a great sense of urgency\u200a\u2014\u200aare going to feel good. How do you find, straddle that line?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/21d97-1zyksmjrplhe-cx6o_e-jhw.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Yes, I think it\u2019s one of the things like the math between two points is relatively simple. Then, you add a third or fourth point, and it\u2019s completely ugly and un-understandable. I\u2019ve not even solved a point-to-point part of the puzzle yet, so I don\u2019t try to necessarily solve the 34-point part of the puzzle.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mostly use this technique when I\u2019m dealing with people in one-on-ones or in direct approach to developing people. When it comes to broader initiatives on the company level on what we\u2019re doing or whatever, it\u2019s there, but not as prominent. Because then, Jason and I have a tendency. We fall back to like, \u201cAll right. There\u2019s two people that\u2019s there.\u201d There\u2019s Jason. There\u2019s me, and we have different sensibilities. We know that there\u2019s some overlap. If between the two of us, we can just have a general understanding and have somewhat of an idea or like how this other one\u2019s to be perceived, that\u2019s the best that we\u2019re at. Which is why this is constantly like a curve.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think that this is also one of those things where it helps to have a somewhat stable company. A lot of the people at Basecamp, we\u2019ve been working with for many, many years. We have several people who have worked here for more than a decade. We have tons of people work here for five years and more. You get to you have a better shot at understanding people\u2019s preferences and strengths and reactions, anticipate their reactions once you\u2019ve worked for them for a longer period of time. I think that\u2019s one of the ways that having a stable workforce really works into your favor.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s one of those things though, on the other hand, that can throw you off when you then have someone new joining the company. You don\u2019t fully understand what they respond well to. It\u2019s pretty easy to misstep. That\u2019s, to some extent, just what it is, like the way you learn about another person is that you misstep and you gauged reactions. You see how well the approach you thought was working doesn\u2019t. Then, you calibrate, and then, you try again. At least just being aware of that, it\u2019s a big step forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Absolutely. As you try to keep this in mind and like you were saying, you clear this first bar of, \u201cOkay, I think I\u2019m treating people how I would like to be treated.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Then, you go perch at that second bar, and okay, well, how would they like to be treated? How do you, in your head or in one-on-one interactions or as you and Jason think about how you also present information to the company? Right now, you\u2019ve got the all-company meet-up going on right now. How do you try to bake that into how you operate as a leader, David?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: I find it hard to do two explicitly at a conscious level that this calibration become part of the gut reaction system. I think though we\u2019ve gone better at that in the sense of let\u2019s say there\u2019s some announcement we want to make to the company, that first of all, we read it for ourselves and clear that first bar, what I would like to be spoken to in this manner? We\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, cool.\u201d Hey, let\u2019s think about all the ways this could be interpreted in different ways. People sometimes call this the devil\u2019s advocate or whatever. I just try to misinterpret anything that if we try to put it out there and schemes we put in place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For example, one of the more, the bigger changes we made on the personnel\u2019s side of things where a couple of years ago, we went to a new salary, pay system. We used to have what most people or what a lot of companies do, which is very individualized. Everyone negotiate, somewhat, their own salary. No two people at the company had the same salary. We just found, for us, that, that was not working well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I felt like I wasn\u2019t treating the company the way I would want to be treated because I felt just a deep sense of unfairness about that. People joined at different times. They ended up with different salaries, even though those different salaries doesn\u2019t always match their differences in the scale of experiences. I just felt like, \u201cHey,\u201d I thought through it as in like, \u201cIf the payroll was public, would I be embarrassed about that?\u201d In the few instances, we ended up feeling, \u201cYes, we would.\u201d Then, we went through this whole process of thinking like, \u201cOkay. What are we going to do about that?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>First thing was what is the market actually? We often say like, \u201cOh, yes. I think we\u2019re paying like in market,\u201d but we didn\u2019t know. We just had this anecdotal information about someone said, \u201cThis person over at this company is being paid so much.\u201d That\u2019s just not a very rigorous way of dealing with something so important as pay.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We went and like, \u201cWell, let\u2019s hire a company.\u201d We ended up using Radford, which is a service that surveys a bunch of different technology companies and just take you through the whole process of what did we want to pay people? We hadn\u2019t even thought that up. It just happened. We made it a lot more rigorous about it, which ended that at some point, we had to communicate that like, \u201cHey, we switching from a system business, ad hoc system that\u2019s not very rigorous and may well be and was unfair in some instances. We\u2019re switching to this new system where everyone is going to be paid the same if they have the same level of experience and skills and work in the same position.\u201d That\u2019s a pretty big change.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It\u2019s sensitive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: It\u2019s very sensitive, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It\u2019s sensitive. It\u2019s about money.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Thankfully, in our instance, we\u2019ve had a way of doing it where we didn\u2019t have to decrease anyone\u2019s pay. The only factual change was for that a bunch of people got a big raise.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Nice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/c42ae-15clbf_mrj1miplm1wzy7ja.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: That\u2019s what you say, right, like, \u201cNice. That sounds nice,\u201d but there\u2019s all sorts of things that are actually not so nice about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Oh, okay, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: One of the case studies we looked at was there\u2019s this guy in, I think, Seattle or something running a payment processing company who said like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to pay everyone $70,000. That\u2019s going to be the floor.\u201d You ever read something about like, \u201cOh, at $70,000, money stopped being a factor and happiness doesn\u2019t increase.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: That\u2019s the threshold, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: That\u2019s the threshold, so you want to pay everyone $70,000. He got an incredible amount of awesome feedback and some negative feedback from the outside, right? You\u2019d think within that company, isn\u2019t that only good?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Okay. That\u2019s what I would think, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Exactly. It turned it wasn\u2019t, necessarily. What the floor meant was there was a bunch of people who are, I don\u2019t know, making $30,000, $40,000 who got a big raise. Then, there were people making $105,000 who got no raise. They got to see all these people who, they felt for whatever reason, that before, there was a split. Maybe they felt that they were being paid $105,000 because had a law degree or they had long experiences or something else, that there was a relative fix between precisions that felt reasonable. All of a sudden, that relative fix got erased, right? A bunch of people, apparently, ended up leaving because they were not happy with that at all. You go like, \u201cHoly shit. That\u2019s fascinating.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You\u2019re doing a supposedly just universally good thing by raising the floor, but it has all these secondary effects. That story definitely left the mark. Not in the particulars, just in the fact that clearly, the guy who was CEO and wanted to raise everyone\u2019s salary did not anticipate that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes, and he had the best of intentions, right, and wanting to cure that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Yes, and I think that\u2019s really where this is important because I think most business leaders would think in most cases, that they have the best intentions. You know what? Best intentions are just not good enough. Best intentions\u200a\u2014\u200aeveryone says they have the best intentions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Best intention is bullshit. What matters is outcomes, right, and whether you\u2019re taking actually steps to anticipate those outcomes and mitigate those outcomes the best you can and just think through that whole\u00a0thing.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>When we went through this payment shift or pay adjustment process, that was one of the big things like, \u201cAll right. We\u2019re going to move.\u201d There were some people who got some very large raises, and I felt like, \u201cThat\u2019s great.\u201d We wanted to set a target that we wanted to pay everyone at the top 5% or the 95 percentile of the industry, based on Chicago or better rates. In some cases, we were just off on that, right? We were catching up, but still. These were some of the things we thought through. Then, we thought through all the ways. We wrote up the announcement.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then, we tried to just poke holes on it from like, \u201cOh, if I\u2019m a person like this who\u2019s sitting in this position where I, for example, do not get a raise, am I going to read this and go like, \u2018What a jip. Everyone else fucking got a sack of money, and I didn\u2019t get anything?\u2019\u201d That\u2019s one of the strategies we tried to use to get broader perspectives. Again, these are like we\u2019re role-playing, so it\u2019s a pretty inaccurate science, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Of course. It\u2019s not science.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/5ace4-14fxlq-fb19evpflb1_03ja.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Exactly, it\u2019s not science. There\u2019s a bunch of things, through the reactions to all sorts of things where we went after what\u2019s like, \u201cOh, holy shit. I totally couldn\u2019t of thought that.\u201d I don\u2019t have a vivid enough imagination to imagine other people sufficiently different from me, and their reaction is different from me. Then, in almost all cases, you can still back-trace and then go like, \u201cAll right. I actually understand where that\u2019s coming from.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right. I think that was such an incredible insight. I mean personally, I find that such an important reminder that yes, your best intentions are not good enough as an employer, as a leader. It\u2019s not. It\u2019s what you&nbsp;<em>do<\/em>, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: It is what goes into that consideration. Most people\u2019s best intentions just go from there, like little heads, but maybe they cleared the bar on how they wanted to be treated themselves. I think oftentimes, they don\u2019t think clear of some romanticized version of what they would have done themselves in that situation, which is just a pretty poor gauge of whether this is good and not good. Your gauge is, \u201cWhat is the reaction?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Exactly, yes.&nbsp;<em>Your gauge is, \u201cWhat is the reaction?\u201d<\/em>&nbsp;I\u2019ll be definitely keeping that in mind, David.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Thanks so much for your time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Yes, thanks for having me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: I know everyone who\u2019s watching this, yes, appreciates it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: This was fun.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Cool. Thanks so much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>DHH<\/strong>: Thanks!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"newsletter-post-form-container\">\n  <h3>Never miss a post \u2013&nbsp;get our latest leadership insights, as they&#8217;re released&#8230;<\/h3>\n\n<iframe src=\"https:\/\/newsletter.canopy.is\/embed\" width=\"850\" height=\"150\" style=\"border:1px solid #EEE; background:white;\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div>\n<br\/>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><a href=\"http:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=banner&amp;utm_content=footer\"><img decoding=\"async\" width=\"2516\" height=\"944\" src=\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/02\/CleanShot-2023-02-09-at-19.36.32@2x.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-7971\"\/><\/a><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>As the Creator of Ruby on Rails and Founder &amp; CTO of Basecamp,&nbsp;David Heinemeier Hansson shares with me what he wishes he learned earlier as a leader. We chat about empathy, illusions of disagreement, and why best intentions are bullshit. Listen or watch the full interview&#8230; Claire: Hi, everyone. I\u2019m\u00a0Claire Lew, and I\u2019m the CEO&hellip; <\/p>\n<p><a class=\"moretag\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails\/\">Read the full article<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":626,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/chtbl.com\/track\/D44D5\/https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/KYT007.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"21:01","filesize":"19.24M","date_recorded":"10-10-2017","explicit":"on","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"7","itunes_title":"Interview with David Heinemeier Hansson, CTO of Basecamp & Creator of Ruby on Rails","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","filesize_raw":"20170709"},"tags":[],"series":[3529],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/21d97-1zyksmjrplhe-cx6o_e-jhw.png","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/plugins\/seriously-simple-podcasting\/assets\/images\/no-album-art.png","download_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-download\/1465\/episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1465\/episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails.mp3","audio_player":"<!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1465-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1465\/episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1465\/episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails.mp3\">https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1465\/episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/the-heartbeat","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"x7XLY7uEG1\"><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails\/\">Episode 7: Interview with David Heinemeier Hansson, CTO of Basecamp &#038; Creator of Ruby on Rails<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-7-interview-with-david-heinemeier-hansson-cto-of-basecamp-creator-of-ruby-on-rails\/embed\/#?secret=x7XLY7uEG1\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Episode 7: Interview with David Heinemeier Hansson, CTO of Basecamp &#038; Creator of Ruby on Rails&#8221; &#8212; Canopy | Blog\" data-secret=\"x7XLY7uEG1\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! 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