{"id":1462,"date":"2019-01-25T22:00:53","date_gmt":"2019-01-25T22:00:53","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=1462"},"modified":"2025-04-21T10:43:10","modified_gmt":"2025-04-21T17:43:10","slug":"episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 6: Interview with Joanna Wiebe, Founder of Copy Hackers"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"The Heartbeat Interview:  Joanna Wiebe, Founder of Copy Hackers\" width=\"1400\" height=\"788\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/fN5910EQ3_8?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-as-the-founder-of-copy-hackers-and-airstory-joanna-gets-real-about-her-biggest-struggles-as-a-leader\">As the Founder of Copy Hackers and Airstory, Joanna gets real about her biggest struggles as a leader.<\/h4>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/copyhackers?lang=en\">Joanna Wiebe<\/a>&nbsp;is the founder of&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com\/\">Copy Hackers<\/a>&nbsp;\u2013 an acclaimed site + service that helps businesses write better. She also most recently co-founded&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/\"><g class=\"gr_ gr_7 gr-alert gr_spell gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace\" id=\"7\" data-gr-id=\"7\">Airstory<\/g><\/a>. I\u2019m a big fan of her work. In this interview, she opens up about what she struggles with leadership, to this day. Thank you for your candor, Joanna!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire Lew:\u00a0<\/strong>Hi everyone. I\u2019m\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/cjlew23\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Claire Lew<\/a>\u00a0and I\u2019m the CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=post&amp;utm_campaign=heartbeat-podcast\">Canopy<\/a> (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). I\u2019m thrilled today to have with me\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/copyhackers\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Joanna Wiebe<\/a>, who is the founder of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">CopyHackers<\/a>, which if you haven\u2019t already heard of, it is this amazing resource where they have online classes and tools. They also do consulting for if you want to improve your business and need to find a way to write better\u200a\u2014\u200awhich all of us do. She is your go-to person and her company is incredible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They also actually recently launched a product called&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Airstory<\/a>&nbsp;that I just learned, which is collaboration software for writers who are on a team. I\u2019m just really excited to have Joanna here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We first met, I want to say a couple years ago. We both spoke at the same conference at&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/businessofsoftware.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Business of Software<\/a>&nbsp;and was blown away by her talk, her insights, and was just wanting to talk to you more. Thanks for being here Joanna.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/13ed7-1k7gyymsggx4lnzum3r10fw.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna Wiebe:<\/strong>&nbsp;Thank you for having me. That was like, three years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It was a while.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I think you had just started your company.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yeah. It was super fresh for me. Speaking at\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/businessofsoftware.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Business of Software<\/a>\u00a0was one of the conferences I think I spoke at that year because it was the first year of running\u00a0Canopy. It\u2019s been a journey.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It\u2019s so cool to see what you\u2019ve done.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Oh, thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: So I\u2019ve got one question to ask you, Joanna. As you\u2019ve built your business over the years, what\u2019s one thing you wish you would have learned earlier as a leader? It can be more than one too. No pressure to pick one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I think one of the bigger things I wished I had learned, and this might be me coming at it from a woman\u2019s perspective possibly, is that&nbsp;\u2026 Oh gosh, there\u2019s a lot. The biggest thing that stands out for me, which was a major insight and changed things and it\u2019s still something I work really hard at, is realizing that, this might sound silly, but that people need a leader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>You want to believe that everything can be, \u201cWe\u2019ll all figure it out together as a team. It should be this really diplomatic thing.\u201d It should be, but I have found that people need that person to look to, to act as a\u00a0leader.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Again, that might seem like, \u201cWell obviously Joanna,\u201d but no, it\u2019s not obvious to me. It wasn\u2019t obvious at all that people won\u2019t want to figure everything out on their own. That they\u2019ll want to have strong guidance from somebody who can then help them see what to do better. Yeah, as I say, I know how obvious it is, but I think it felt aggressive or too assertive to lead, to say, \u201cHere\u2019s the vision that I\u2019m setting,\u201d and you want to get people on board with it of course.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I found that I lean really far toward, \u201cAre you guys okay with that? What do you guys think about that? Is that going to work for you?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure. Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/0460e-1yqnnkuipmbkoyvad2vfb3a.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: When I just state it and we discuss, for me it has worked better than trying to be a quiet leader or the shy leader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s one of the bigger revelations and it\u2019s something that I have to keep working on, right? I knew that running a team would be hard because when I worked in-house, I never wanted to be the team leader. I ended up in the team leader role a bunch of times, but it wasn\u2019t something that I looked for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: \u201cThe Accidental Leader.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Right, exactly.I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay. I guess I\u2019m doing that.\u201d Yeah. I knew that people management was hard, but leadership isn\u2019t about people management either, which is also a weird thing for me. You don\u2019t have to necessarily. In my experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You don\u2019t need to necessarily be an outstanding \u201cpeople manager\u201d to \u201cCEO something\u201d, which is different from what I learned.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: There are so much I want to ask about this. There are so many different parts. Talk to me about what you mean by the difference between \u201cCEO-ing something\u201d and being a \u201cpeople manager\u201d. What do you mean by that? What\u2019s the difference? What are some examples maybe of things that you\u2019ve done where you\u2019ve been in one box and not the other?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I\u2019ve been called on not being a great \u201cpeople manager\u201d before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: We all have.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It\u2019s a weakness that I\u2019ve identified in myself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Because people are people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: They\u2019re so different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I went into leading my team thinking that the most important thing for me to do was to manage them to happiness. Okay, so great. That\u2019s where I\u2019m supposed to be. It\u2019s all about just, \u201cAre they happy? Are they satisfied?\u201d Because we collect leadership ideas from everywhere. I collected one from, this is going to sound really dumb, from\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.imdb.com\/title\/tt1606375\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Downton\u00a0Abbey<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Honestly\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: That\u2019s fine. It could have been worse. It could have been worse. No, I love your honesty Joanna.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It\u2019s honest, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Trust me, we get these ideas of leadership, you\u2019re so right though, from shows, from family members, from things our friends say, from quotes we read in books. Nothing really that scientific sometimes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/9de10-1y5ttjmgmbkhcu4bxbsvcva.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Right. We all want to get the leadership from&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Hard-Thing-About-Things-Building\/dp\/0062273205\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The Hard Thing About Hard Things<\/a>. Sure, absolutely. You learn a lot of about leadership in that book, but then this is your job constantly. It never stops. Even when you\u2019re down and watching an X-Men movie or something, you\u2019re like, \u201cThat guy is a good leader.\u201d You pick that stuff up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: For Downton Abbey, he said, the&nbsp;\u2026 I can\u2019t remember his title. The main Lord guy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Haha I don\u2019t watch the show. No, no.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Oh, you should. Anyway, he said that the reason that Downton Abbey existed, people are watching like, \u201cWhy is she talking about this?\u201d The reason Downton Abbey existed&nbsp;\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: No, I\u2019m with you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>:&nbsp;\u2026 Was to be an employer, to make jobs. I loved that. That totally made sense to me. I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah,\u201d because I love creating jobs. I love knowing that I have a team, small nice, seven person team, but it\u2019s still a team with families and they\u2019re putting shoes on their kids\u2019 feet and they\u2019re going on vacation. I love that we can create that. I\u2019ve loved the people side of the business so much, but I love the business side of the business too. For me, it\u2019s been sorting out when&nbsp;\u2026 I know people should always \u2013 and we\u2019re figuring it as we go\u200a\u2014\u200apeople should really always come first and if your team comes first, things work really well. Things work out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You have to make so many hard decisions in a leadership role. Those will affect people too. I\u2019ve struggled with the balance, if there is one, or the ordering of leading, being the CEO, setting the vision, saying, \u201cThat\u2019s not working. We\u2019re going to shift that direction completely and that means that we might have to find a new job for you here, a new role for you or we might have to exit you.\u201d Having to do that, which doesn\u2019t feel like my people management skills are as important as we grow, as those leaderships skills, making those harder decisions. There\u2019s that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I heard so many times that leaders are&nbsp;\u2026 It\u2019s different. Some people say leaders are great people managers. Other say, that\u2019s not the role of the leader at all to be a people manager and they of course reference Steve Jobs every time they say that. Like, \u201cHe didn\u2019t. He wasn\u2019t a good people manager.\u201d Well, was he? He was a good team builder. Anyway, now I\u2019m rambling, but there\u2019s just so many ideas about, it\u2019s not a conflict between people management and leadership, but there is a lot for me to still figure out there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: I think that conflict though that you\u2019re talking about between genuinely wanting your employees to be happy on one end and then on the other end, and again not mutually exclusive, but wanting to do what\u2019s in the best interest of the business sometimes though, are at odds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Some people are going to be pissed because they\u2019re going to lose their job because it doesn\u2019t fit in line with the vision of the company or expenses are too high or whatever, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sometimes, the decisions that you have to make, right? This is, I think, what makes it really tricky. Is it going to fall in line with wanting to be liked? I&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourcompany.com\/watch-the-heartbeat-interview-%EF%B8%8F-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom-with-transcript-9f1a8f817856\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">interviewed Des Traynor who\u2019s the founder of Intercom<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One of the things that he talked about was a little bit about this tension of how, as a leader, we want to be liked and that desire to be liked is at direct odds with leading well. I\u2019m curious if that\u2019s something that you can relate to, if you can recall a specific moment where you were like, \u201cOh, okay.\u201d Did someone call you out about this and they were like, \u201cJoanna. You\u2019re not doing&nbsp;..&nbsp;?\u201d Or was it something that you discovered on your own?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/250a4-1bfprficqhmp_vu32ak2gxa.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I\u2019ve been called out by one leader about not being a people manager. We had an argument about that, about that I didn\u2019t believe that the role of the CEO is to first and foremost, be a people manager and I still don\u2019t believe that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There was that. For him, for Des to say that about likability. I think if you have a large team, and this is me not having a huge team. I don\u2019t have 500 people sitting in an auditorium waiting for me to give a talk and they\u2019re all my employees.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: When you have a small team, you know everybody. You know their families. You know where they went on vacation. You saw their pictures. You guys get together for Christmas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Right? Small teams, there\u2019s this, you want them to like you. I had to let somebody go who was a really good copywriter, but we\u2019ve shifted away, with Copy Hackers, away from services towards this product that we\u2019ve been building.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>You have to be willing to commit to what you think the future is. It would be easier if I had permission to make that change\u200a\u2014\u200aand that sounds awful. I don\u2019t think that disqualifies me as a leader. I think it\u2019s just like it\u2019s something I have to overcome.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I have to know that it\u2019s up to me to do hard things, which will include letting that particular copywriter go. For Des, it means not being liked because he made some hard decisions. For me, it means the exact same thing, but then having the courage to stand behind those and say, \u201cNo, I really am. I\u2019m leading this organization. This organization needs this because I\u2019ve created it.\u201d It gets better because of the people in it, but I have to own that I\u2019m going to lead this and if I want everybody to row in the same direction, I have to set that direction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I can\u2019t say, \u201cWhat do you guys think about this direction?\u201d They can talk with me about it and hopefully I\u2019ll create a good environment for that, but it\u2019s not going to be this big democracy necessarily. That\u2019s for me, the hardest part.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I cringe at the idea of fully making decisions and cascading those out. I cringe a little bit about it. I\u2019d rather that we could all make decisions together and everybody can do everything together. The reality is that they need a strong\u00a0leader.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: They need somebody to say like, \u201cHere\u2019s where we\u2019re going guys.\u201d Then they can say, \u201cOkay. Here\u2019s how we rally behind that\u201d and \u201cDo we think we should do it that way?\u201d We should have those discussions at that point, but I have to set that vision.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: That\u2019s a really hard part.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Claire: Right. No, my mind is turning right now because I think what you\u2019re also describing is just how difficult it is for leaders to make decisions and to your point of, is it a democracy? Do you take everyone\u2019s input in when you make a really big decision like changing the direction of the company? To what extent do you ask for people\u2019s opinion to begin with, on certain decisions? To what extent do you take those into account? What\u2019s the metric, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You were saying, it would be almost nice if someone could give me permission because it\u2019s like, there\u2019s no ruler, so to speak, of like, \u201cOh. If the decision is like this, then you should ask three people, but if it\u2019s this, then you should ask the entire company. If it\u2019s like this, don\u2019t ask anyone and just choose what you think.\u201d It\u2019s like, that would be a nice cheat sheet, but we don\u2019t really get that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Do you have a cheat sheet? Haha.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: No, I don\u2019t have that! Haha. I\u2019ll let you know when I find it. I\u2019ll let you know when I find that because yeah, I\u2019m still looking for it. No, but I can personally empathize in what those moments are and I\u2019m curious for you, what is your ruler personally? What do you try to listen to or how do you try to think those moments through?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Yeah. I know that I do well when I can discuss an idea with people that I trust. My co-founder and I, we work through ideas, but I don\u2019t know that we have an actual ruler. I think we\u2019re still so new with the software company. For the other side of the business, the decisions just seem to be made because it\u2019s all mine. It\u2019s 100% mine. I don\u2019t ever question anything with the Copy Hackers side. I know what I\u2019m doing. I don\u2019t have to answer to anybody.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When we\u2019re talking about the product side of the business, now it\u2019s more complicated. That\u2019s where the real leadership happens. It\u2019s because so many things could go wrong and a lot of it feels like an experiment. It\u2019s a huge experiment and you want to have all the smart minds you can involved in making so that the experiment goes as well as possible. A ruler, I don\u2019t know what I would say it is. Do you have&nbsp;\u2026 What\u2019s yours?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Good question.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It\u2019s your question. Well done.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Haha\u2026 Yeah. I don\u2019t think this is foolproof by any means, but I do try to think and center on ultimately how do I want to help people? What\u2019s going to be in the best interest of the organization getting in a position to do that, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: We have a really particular point of view at Canopy for how we want to help CEO\u2019s and employees work better together and have a more open and honest environment. We want to help as many people as we can and we want to do it in a really particular way, which is with honesty, with accountability, with transparency, and in a way that\u2019s fun and also very straightforward. Like, simple, like no frills. Whether it\u2019s a product decision, pricing decision, a decision around how we treat customers, hiring decisions, decisions around not raising money, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: A lot of decision are all, for me personally, centered around that. I do love to talk to people as much as possible about a certain decision. On the team, I\u2019m lucky to have&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/jasonfried\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Jason<\/a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/dhh\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">David<\/a>&nbsp;of&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/basecamp.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Basecamp<\/a>&nbsp;who are on our board as advisors. But I always know as well that, at the end of the day,&nbsp;<em>I<\/em>&nbsp;have to feel good about the decision. I\u2019m the one that\u2019s really going to live with it more than anyone else on the team. It\u2019s a hard thing to say without trying to inflate the ego at all.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s just me thinking, \u201cOkay. Ultimately, what can I really be doing in the best interest of the business? Given where we want to be and how we want to help people, what call do we need to make to get there?\u201d I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s so hard. It doesn\u2019t always fit so neatly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It\u2019s that moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The moment at which you realize, even saying it, that it really does come down to\u00a0you.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It does. I think so, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It does. It does.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: That is a tense moment. You feel like, \u201cAm I allowed to say that?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Because my employees and my team, they\u2019re a huge part. I can\u2019t do any of this without them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It comes down to me, but I need them, right? There\u2019s this, \u201cWhy do I get to make the call?\u201d Then you do get to make the call because you\u2019re the one watching payroll.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/fb01b-1dpsbyuwxnycbvzbcg9bkca.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: You know how many people you can hire. It\u2019s all on you. You\u2019re thinking about it constantly. Maybe that\u2019s just something that newer leaders running their own business deal with. I don\u2019t know if the CEO of Intuit necessarily deals with the same thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>When you\u2019re so involved, for me at least, when I\u2019m so involved in a small business\u200a\u2014\u200ait\u2019s all on my shoulders. I want to include everybody. Then there comes that moment at which, and I\u2019ve definitely struggled with this where you just say, \u201cNo. We\u2019re doing it this\u00a0way.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve actually said, \u201cWe\u2019re doing it this way,\u201d but I have several times thought, \u201cOh. I wish I would just say, \u2018We\u2019re doing it this way,\u2019 and just move on with it.\u201d You need everybody to buy in and all of that stuff. It\u2019s tense, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It\u2019s real work. The leadership side is real work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It is. Joanna, something that you mentioned very, very early in the conversation, that you prefaced your answer with was, you said that it might be because I\u2019m a woman that I\u2019m feeling this way. Then you also talked a little bit about how I can\u2019t be the shy, quiet leader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Talk to me, to what extent do you feel like it\u2019s maybe a personality thing? Why did you say, \u201cOh. It might be because I\u2019m a woman?\u201d Tell me about where you think maybe it might come from. That trepidation to say, \u201cWe\u2019re going to do it my way.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It\u2019s a hard thing for me to say too, so I can relate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Right? I am very conscious of how I was raised.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Raised to be very polite.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: When you do something that feels impolite, which making a call often does, and it doesn\u2019t mean it has to, but for me it does and that might be because I never really learned the skills. I didn\u2019t grow up seeing a woman make those decisions, which I hope is not offensive to the women that raised me in any way. Wonderful people. I don\u2019t think I saw it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I know that when I was working in-house, when I was still at Intuit actually, as an example, when I was there, I got my fair share of negative feedback about being too opinionated, about making too many decisions on my own.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Fascinating.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I didn\u2019t think that I did. I still don\u2019t think that I did. I think it was just uncomfortable for the people who didn\u2019t expect me to behave that way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: You\u2019re conscious of being assertive without being aggressive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>It\u2019s easy for people to think that that assertive woman is an aggressive woman.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: I struggle with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Am I being friendly while I\u2019m delivering hard news?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Right? The things that we do. I don\u2019t think that my leadership, I don\u2019t want that to be my story necessarily as like, oh a \u201cwoman leader.\u201d Not that I also don\u2019t want that because I identify as that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: There\u2019s the challenge that always comes with it, leading men and women. It\u2019s hard to even speak about because there\u2019s so much. It\u2019s just the reality of, I don\u2019t have the luxury of being raised to where everybody was saying everything you say is right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: You should make that hard call.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I didn\u2019t, so I\u2019m learning that skill now that I\u2019m older. It makes it difficult because I\u2019m supposed to also keep using the softer people skills.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It\u2019s this negotiation process that is hard.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes. I think that is incredibly insightful Joanna and I can personally relate to so much too. I think how you\u2019re raised and the examples and the models you have set such a big tone for how you handle conflict, for how comfortable you are making decisions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I feel really lucky because my mom was incredibly assertive, almost sometimes too assertive when I was a kid. I would watch her in some interactions and I would cringe and go, \u201cOh. I feel like that might have been too much.\u201d She might admit that herself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think for me, that\u2019s probably actually influenced me in certain ways. Then to your point about environment factors and being in a situation where you might get feedback from other people about maybe being too assertive or coming off too strongly. I definitely got that when I was in college. I\u2019ll never forget that. I was Student Body President my senior year in college.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Wow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: I\u2019ll never forget there were so many other executive board members or other folks who would pull me aside, all male, who would tell me, \u201cClaire. You come off really strong in this meeting\u201d or \u201cI don\u2019t know if people were receptive to this because of, I think you jumped to this too quickly\u201d or \u201cIt feels a little aggressive the way you\u2019re pursuing this issue.\u201d I remember being I think, 21, 22 at the time\u2026 Being a little obviously frustrated, but that obviously shaped me too. To your point, it created a greater consciousness of what you were saying. Just the reality of, while I don\u2019t think, \u201cOh, I\u2019m a woman leader, so I need to do this,\u201d but to acknowledge the reality that people will see something on one side and you have to acknowledge how that\u2019s going to be received. I can completely empathize.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It\u2019s tough.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: There\u2019s certain places that we\u2019re \u201callowed\u201d to lead in and other things that we all know, everybody knows, this is not a surprise, but we\u2019re in a strange new world of leading businesses like this, so yeah, it\u2019s just this big negotiation process. It\u2019s a great challenge, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It is. Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It\u2019s a wonderful things. I\u2019ve loved every second of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It is. For all the people who gave me that feedback, to this day it\u2019s so fascinating because interacting with both men and women, it\u2019s so fascinating to see people know react in those ways too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: To just treat you like a person, and believe in you as a person, and believe in your business just because they think it\u2019s a great business and to support. I feel just lucky in my career because I know that that\u2019s not always the experience people have, but for all the people who might have given that feedback, there are so many more who are just like, \u201cJust do it your way, whatever that way is.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Yes. Completely, right? Those are the ones who I do feel that those stick out more in my head. I don\u2019t let, I don\u2019t find those other negative voices creeping in necessarily, but I know that they got to be in there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right. They exist. Yeah, of course.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/b1c32-1yh2v9iiox8d9uguejm2tmw.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: They\u2019re back there, but they\u2019re not the point. It is something that when I\u2019m talking about leading and the idea of stepping up and being the leader of a team with men on it, men who are older than I am, that\u2019s something that Little Joanna is like, \u201cAre we allowed to do that?\u201d then Big Joanna is like, \u201cYeah. We\u2019re allowed to do that.\u201d It is that, right? It\u2019s just the reality of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It is. It is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: It\u2019s how we lead. It\u2019s part of being that leader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It is. Well, Joanna, thank you so much for your candor and for just being very real with all of us. Honestly, it has energized me and it\u2019s just refreshing to hear. Thanks so much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Joanna<\/strong>: Well, thank you. Thanks for the fascinating question that\u2019s going to have me thinking all day, all week I\u2019m sure. I\u2019ll be like, \u201cOh. I should have said that.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: It\u2019s how these things go. Trust me, I know so many people will benefit from your thoughts, so thank you for sharing them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"newsletter-post-form-container\">\n  <h3>Never miss a post \u2013&nbsp;get our latest leadership insights, as they&#8217;re released&#8230;<\/h3>\n\n<iframe src=\"https:\/\/newsletter.canopy.is\/embed\" width=\"850\" height=\"150\" style=\"border:1px solid #EEE; background:white;\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div>\n<br\/>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><a href=\"http:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=banner&amp;utm_content=footer\"><img decoding=\"async\" width=\"2516\" height=\"944\" src=\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/02\/CleanShot-2023-02-09-at-19.36.32@2x.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-7971\"\/><\/a><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>As the Founder of Copy Hackers and Airstory, Joanna gets real about her biggest struggles as a leader. Joanna Wiebe&nbsp;is the founder of&nbsp;Copy Hackers&nbsp;\u2013 an acclaimed site + service that helps businesses write better. She also most recently co-founded&nbsp;Airstory. I\u2019m a big fan of her work. In this interview, she opens up about what she&hellip; <\/p>\n<p><a class=\"moretag\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers\/\">Read the full article<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":602,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/chtbl.com\/track\/D44D5\/https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/KYT006.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"25:37","filesize":"23.45M","date_recorded":"26-09-2017","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"6","itunes_title":"Interview with Joanna Wiebe, Founder of Copy Hackers","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","filesize_raw":"24586030"},"tags":[],"series":[3529],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/b1c32-1yh2v9iiox8d9uguejm2tmw.png","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/plugins\/seriously-simple-podcasting\/assets\/images\/no-album-art.png","download_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-download\/1462\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1462\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers.mp3","audio_player":"<!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1462-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1462\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1462\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers.mp3\">https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1462\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/the-heartbeat","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"iG45ho68RZ\"><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers\/\">Episode 6: Interview with Joanna Wiebe, Founder of Copy Hackers<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers\/embed\/#?secret=iG45ho68RZ\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Episode 6: Interview with Joanna Wiebe, Founder of Copy Hackers&#8221; &#8212; Canopy | Blog\" data-secret=\"iG45ho68RZ\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! 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In this interview, she opens up about what she struggles with leadership.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-6-interview-with-joanna-wiebe-founder-of-copy-hackers\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Episode 6: Interview with Joanna Wiebe, Founder of Copy Hackers\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=fN5910EQ3_8 As the Founder of Copy Hackers and Airstory, Joanna gets real about her biggest struggles as a leader. 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