{"id":1454,"date":"2019-01-25T19:11:59","date_gmt":"2019-01-25T19:11:59","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=1454"},"modified":"2025-04-21T11:10:02","modified_gmt":"2025-04-21T18:10:02","slug":"episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe width=\"1400\" height=\"788\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/JVES5z_Mr3k?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-as-the-founder-of-a-300-software-company-des-talks-about-the-silence-cost-to-being-nice-the-pitfalls-of-transparency-as-a-leader-and-the-power-of-consistency\">As the founder of a 300+ software company, Des talks about the silence cost to being nice, the pitfalls of transparency as a leader, and the power of consistency.<\/h4>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire Lew:<\/strong>\u00a0Hi everyone, I\u2019m\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/cjlew23\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Claire<\/a>\u00a0and I\u2019m the CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/?utm_source=blog&amp;utm_medium=post&amp;utm_campaign=heartbeat-podcast\">Canopy<\/a> (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). I\u2019m really excited today to have a special guest with me,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/destraynor\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Des Traynor<\/a>, the founder of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.intercom.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Intercom<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Des is someone who I\u2019ve gotten to know over the past few years. We\u2019ve spoken at a few of the same conferences and I\u2019ve always been blown away, to be frank Des, by some of the insights that you\u2019ve shared around product, around growing teams. It\u2019s always so interesting to learn from you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, really grateful to have you here today and to ask you one question around leadership.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des Traynor:<\/strong>&nbsp;Wow, it\u2019s cool to be here. Been a fan of you and your talks and your company for quite a while so it\u2019s great to be here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Thanks so much Des, appreciate that. So here\u2019s the thing, here\u2019s the one question I\u2019m going to ask you, which is\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What\u2019s something you wish you would have learned earlier as a leader?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: There are so many, do I have to pick one?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire&nbsp;<\/strong>: You can pick as many as you want. You can get started going through the list and I\u2019ll cut you off when I feel like it\u2019s too much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des:<\/strong>&nbsp;Okay. All right. I\u2019ll go though the list and you can just mute me if it gets to be too much\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des:<\/strong>&nbsp;I guess something that I try to talk to people a lot about is the importance of being clear and honest in communication. I think that often goes directly at odds with the social skill of being likable. I think as a leader, you have to understand that your job isn\u2019t to leave a room whatever thinking you\u2019re a swell person who they really want to hang and go to beers with. If someone has done great work, they should feel great about after talk to you about it. Similarly, if someone hasn\u2019t done great work they shouldn\u2019t feel great about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>You shouldn\u2019t optimize for your own perspective when you\u2019re sharing feedback. You should optimize for the clearer I feel about it, it helps the person advance in their career. I think there\u2019s a real silent cost to being\u00a0nice.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I think it is part of the \u201cradical candor\u201d concept. I think there\u2019s a danger that people adopt: They apply the same skills they use in social dynamics when they\u2019re at a cocktail party to management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think I learned very early on in my career that my job isn\u2019t to be really popular. My job is to be really honest and fair and treat people with respect they deserve and give them the feedback that they need to improve in their career. I think that, for me, is something that most people who find themselves in leadership position early\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>By the way, this is very true in startups when they grow so quickly, before you know it you have a team of six or more reporting to you and you never asked for this, but now it\u2019s happened or whatever.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire:<\/strong>&nbsp;Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des:&nbsp;<\/strong>I think there\u2019s a silent cost to optimizing for being nice. I think you really need to think about that as a leader. That\u2019s probably my first one, I think. It\u2019s the one that maybe bites you early in your career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire:<\/strong>&nbsp;Right. Is it something that you remember? Was there anything that happened where you were like, \u201cOh my god, I never imagined myself optimizing for nice.\u201d I mean, you\u2019re a nice guy, let\u2019s be real right? You\u2019re a good person, right? Most people, I would like to say, are. But was there a moment where you\u2019re just like, \u201cWow, I think I\u2019m actually sort of wanting to be liked by my team more than I am trying to make the right decisions here.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: I think the moment for me came when I remember going into a meeting and we\u2019re having to share feedback with somebody. It wasn\u2019t even particularly bad, it was just like hey here\u2019s a few things that can be better\u2026 At the time, it was customer support, it was a couple conversations that just could have gone better. I just wanted to let the person know there is standard and these couple of occasions you didn\u2019t hit it. I want to talk about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I wrote down my honest thoughts before I went into the meeting. I went in and I had the meeting, then I came back and my notepad was still open on my screen. When I sat down and replayed the conversation in my head of the words I had said, I looked at the difference at the words I had written down.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What I had written down was: \u201cNot acceptable standards, understand why it might have happened, let\u2019s talk about this scenario which all this played out.\u201d But I need to be clear from my end that we can\u2019t treat our customers like this. It\u2019s needs to be higher quality, we need to be more compassionate, more empathetic with the customer, etc.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But then I thought about the meeting and I was like, \u201cHey look you\u2019re doing awesome, there is a couple little things that\u201d&nbsp;\u2026 And how quickly I had degraded the message in order to make it a nice, easy conversation for me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: Because I wasn\u2019t thinking about them, I was thinking how do I make this an easy Tuesday afternoon? When that realization hit home as I re-read my notes I was like, \u201cI\u2019m fucking this up.\u201d Wait, can I curse?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Haha, you\u2019re good. I can so relate. I think sometimes we unintentionally dilute a message without, almost subconsciously, right? Almost subconsciously, just because I think a lot of, it\u2019s human instinct, we fear the reaction. We\u2019re trying to control for the reaction so we bend the words a little bit. We do the shit sandwich, so to speak, where you\u2019re giving the compliments right around the shit because you\u2019re like, \u201cOh I just got to say the good stuff just so that person feels good.\u201d You\u2019re so right, it\u2019s dangerous because what did that teammate walk away with? They probably thought, \u201cOh, I\u2019m doing okay.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: How could they walk away thinking that? I slipped up a couple of times, the teams like, that\u2019s fine. Because that\u2019s the message I gave, nearly a 180 to what was on my screen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/6db67-1orxwqmzcdmvimpatwkkoza.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: I guess another thing that comes up a lot is, that I think about a lot, is transparency, right? How it\u2019s such a double edge sword.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: Specifically there\u2019s been a lot movement towards the transparent company. Let\u2019s share everything with everyone on the team. There\u2019s a lot of good quotes and good arguments that support this, which is like, if you want your team to behave the way that you would behave they need access to the same information that you have.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: I think that\u2019s generally true. I 100% agree with that. The key thing people forget in transparency is it\u2019s not about opening up the Google Drive and making sure that everyone can read everything. It\u2019s about transparency of context as well. As in, I find myself constantly saying, \u201cHere\u2019s a piece of information. Then here\u2019s a shit load of context you need to understand, that\u2019s what makes this interesting.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: It\u2019s so messed up, where the cost of, the size of the context, it could be anything. It could be like, \u201cWell, in order to understand this you first of all need to understand the theory of disruptive innovation so let me start there.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: Genuinely, I\u2019m not saying transparency is bad. But I think transparency where it causes more confusion than it resolves is risky. Where it make it people want to ask more questions rather than answering questions, you need to think about this. That\u2019s why I think the sharing nuggets of information, whether it\u2019s a spreadsheet or whatever, if you have people either misinterpreting or just frankly lost for interpretation, you need to think about whether or not that was fully transparent thing to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like in some sense, no company is 100% transparent because for that to happen every time you go for a walk with somebody you have to write the conversation down and share it with the entire team.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Transparency is some sort of spectrum. I think one thing that people over-engineer for is let\u2019s let everyone have access to absolutely everything and somehow magically assume that you\u2019re going to understand it all on how we think about everything all the time. That\u2019s just not how it works unfortunately.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: So I think that\u2019s understanding that transparency\u2019s a spectrum. Some areas where it\u2019s really ROI positive: So all of our product ideas, all of our product\u2019s strategies etc, you want everybody in company to understand that so the can make the smartest local decisions. Random stuff like how we think about a new market force. Or hey, once we pay our PR agency or something like that. It\u2019s just, in order to understand you have to provide all this other stuff such that the message becomes really just a waste of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: I think it\u2019s worth having a critical threshold to decide what\u2019s actually good for everyone to know, what\u2019s not a secret but needs context, and what actually genuinely might be a secret and you don\u2019t want everyone panicking about something or whatever. Understanding that transparency is a spectrum is something that, as a leader, I think you need to get your head around pretty quickly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: I also could not agree more with that. I think it runs, honestly like you were saying, counter to a very popular idea these days, which is just open up everything. Which again, in theory, I mean, hey I run\u00a0Canopy, right? It\u2019s like of course, transparency is good, but I could not agree more that transparency is only useful with meaning assigned to it, right? Like you were saying, in context. So it\u2019s a lot for a leader, I think also, to be very conscious about how they invest in training folks and giving that context. Like you said, where is it appropriate and honestly in what cases is it distracting? I personally, can only handle so much information in a day. I don\u2019t want to know the details of every single little thing that\u2019s happening on support. I don\u2019t want to know the details on every single thing that\u2019s running on product. I would go insane.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s the same way. To what extent, as a leader, and this is what you have to decide, is that information useful, do we invest in proving that context? What point is it actually distracting? So, I think that\u2019s very, very spot on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: Do I have time for one more?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Go for it Des. I was just about to say, I\u2019m not going to cut you off yet, these are all so good. What\u2019s your last one?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.knowyourteam.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/f563a-1ccuowfipeyssdnp8-18jjg.png\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: This is my last one because I got a meeting after. I think something that wasn\u2019t obvious to me until maybe about year two or year three was the importance of consistency in who you are, who you meet, and your behavior in general. I think I always thought, you have this attitude of, oh consistency means boring. It means repetitive. It also genuinely means calmness and predictability. It means you\u2019re easy to interpret and easy to predict by your team, which means if you consistency behave in a certain way, people can preempt and predict what you\u2019re likely to do. As a result they know how to act as if you weren\u2019t there, which is a really vital thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There\u2019s this quote that people fall in love with, which is something like, \u201c<em>If foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a simple mind<\/em>\u201d is the quote I often hear back at me when I talk about consistency. I think the key there is foolish consistency, it\u2019s consistency where you\u2019ve gotten the information you should be acting differently but you\u2019re still doing the same thing. But in general, one example I see of this all the time is people who apply what I call central standard. So that is, some projects they jump into and some projects they stay out of. Some people they go hard on and some people they go easy on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: Some things they\u2019re crazy about, some things they\u2019re quiet about. It becomes quite chaotic because people never know where they stand in relation to anything. So I think having a set of principles that have a setup, here are the things that I really care about when you share work with me and I love to give you feedback along these lines. Here are the things that I frankly don\u2019t care about unless it crosses some crazy threshold.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: I think doing that, but it\u2019s so important to do it consistently. It takes a lot of discipline to be like, I will always, whatever, point out a typo in a blog and have headliners. I\u2019ll never be like, \u201cThat\u2019s okay.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: It\u2019s that consistency always being a thing, people learn and they learn how to work with the set standards you set.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: There\u2019s a quote by some off brain military person like, \u201c<em>The standards you walk past is the standard you tolerate.<\/em>\u201d I think that\u2019s why it has to be consistent. Not opportunistically say, \u201coh we have to do a really good job here, but this thing over here can be shit.\u201d I really felt that, again, it\u2019s forced a greater discipline and basic leadership hygiene on me to know that I don\u2019t actually get to pick and choose. You\u2019re doing the job all the time, not just the times you show up and you\u2019re excited. You\u2019re doing your job all the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>When your job is leading, you\u2019re basically setting a precedent for acceptable and expected behavior. Which means, every single negative thing you do, every bad behavior you have, you\u2019re basically admitting that you think that\u2019s acceptable.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: So you really need to get your shit together, you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Oh my gosh, that\u2019s an amazing nugget there, Des. Because I think what you\u2019re also talking is that is how a leader sets the culture, right? Because at the end of the day, culture is just the byproduct of consistent actions, behaviors, and beliefs right? So, without that consistency then your culture becomes, yeah, it becomes a morphosis, it becomes this thing that gets shaped by external factors or just by a whim of what happens to be going on in the moment. A lot of people, they\u2019ll approach me and talk about, \u201cYeah Claire, how do you shift culture? How do actually get a culture to be open and honest?\u201d My answer is always, well, it\u2019s always the consistent behavior first and foremost from the leader. It starts there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like you were saying, if she or he is setting the standard for, \u201cOh when someone has a desenting opinion I don\u2019t yell at them in front of my team. I actually thank them and I tell them \u2018You know what? I disagree with you but I love that you brought that up.\u2019\u201d Right? That sets the expectation then for that next person to come up to you and bring that view point. Without that consistency, just as you were saying, then that culture doesn\u2019t exist, it doesn\u2019t grow. So that\u2019s, yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: That\u2019s it. I\u2019m done at three. I could keep going.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Oh my gosh, you know what? I was about to say, I\u2019m going to have to come back to you for more because wow, I\u2019m blown away. I think so many of the folks who follow along with this will really appreciate you sharing all that. Thanks so much for your time. Really enjoyed having you here, Des.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Des<\/strong>: Thank you so much for the opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Claire<\/strong>: Of course, okay, talk soon. See you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"newsletter-post-form-container\">\n  <h3>Never miss a post \u2013&nbsp;get our latest leadership insights, as they&#8217;re released&#8230;<\/h3>\n\n<iframe src=\"https:\/\/newsletter.canopy.is\/embed\" width=\"850\" height=\"150\" style=\"border:1px solid #EEE; background:white;\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div>\n<br\/>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>As the founder of a 300+ software company, Des talks about the silence cost to being nice, the pitfalls of transparency as a leader, and the power of consistency. Claire Lew:\u00a0Hi everyone, I\u2019m\u00a0Claire\u00a0and I\u2019m the CEO of Canopy (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). I\u2019m really excited today to have a special guest with me,\u00a0Des&hellip; <\/p>\n<p><a class=\"moretag\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/\">Read the full article<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":629,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/chtbl.com\/track\/D44D5\/https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/KYT004.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"12:54","filesize":"12.4mb","date_recorded":"29-08-2017","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"4","itunes_title":"Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","filesize_raw":"14026291"},"tags":[],"series":[3529],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/plugins\/seriously-simple-podcasting\/assets\/images\/no-album-art.png","download_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-download\/1454\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1454\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom.mp3","audio_player":"<!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1454-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1454\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1454\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom.mp3\">https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast-player\/1454\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/the-heartbeat","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"slXQfZrNjf\"><a href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/\">Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/embed\/#?secret=slXQfZrNjf\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom&#8221; &#8212; Canopy | Blog\" data-secret=\"slXQfZrNjf\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/* ]]> *\/\n<\/script>\n"},"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO Premium plugin v20.1 (Yoast SEO v22.4) - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Des Traynor, co-founder of Intercom, talks about the silence cost to being nice, the pitfalls of transparency as a leader, and the power of consistency.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=JVES5z_Mr3k As the founder of a 300+ software company, Des talks about the silence cost to being nice, the pitfalls of\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Canopy | Blog\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:publisher\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/knowyourteamhq\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2025-04-21T18:10:02+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"600\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"335\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/png\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:site\" content=\"@KnowYourTeamHQ\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"13 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/\",\"name\":\"Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#website\"},\"primaryImageOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#primaryimage\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png\",\"datePublished\":\"2019-01-25T19:11:59+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2025-04-21T18:10:02+00:00\",\"description\":\"Des Traynor, co-founder of Intercom, talks about the silence cost to being nice, the pitfalls of transparency as a leader, and the power of consistency.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#primaryimage\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png\",\"width\":600,\"height\":335},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Episode\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":3,\"name\":\"Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/\",\"name\":\"Canopy | Blog\",\"description\":\"Thoughts on how to become a better leader, and avoid being a bad boss.\",\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#organization\"},\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Organization\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#organization\",\"name\":\"Know Your Team\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/\",\"logo\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/Artboard-1@2x.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/Artboard-1@2x.png\",\"width\":1024,\"height\":1024,\"caption\":\"Know Your Team\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\"},\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/knowyourteamhq\",\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/KnowYourTeamHQ\",\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/knowyourteamhq\/\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/channel\/UCLmMSaIY8JfjiJnwYSfYeuA\"]}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO Premium plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom","description":"Des Traynor, co-founder of Intercom, talks about the silence cost to being nice, the pitfalls of transparency as a leader, and the power of consistency.","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom","og_description":"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=JVES5z_Mr3k As the founder of a 300+ software company, Des talks about the silence cost to being nice, the pitfalls of","og_url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/","og_site_name":"Canopy | Blog","article_publisher":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/knowyourteamhq","article_modified_time":"2025-04-21T18:10:02+00:00","og_image":[{"width":600,"height":335,"url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png","type":"image\/png"}],"twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_site":"@KnowYourTeamHQ","twitter_misc":{"Est. reading time":"13 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/","url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/","name":"Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#website"},"primaryImageOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#primaryimage"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png","datePublished":"2019-01-25T19:11:59+00:00","dateModified":"2025-04-21T18:10:02+00:00","description":"Des Traynor, co-founder of Intercom, talks about the silence cost to being nice, the pitfalls of transparency as a leader, and the power of consistency.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/"]}]},{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#primaryimage","url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png","width":600,"height":335},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/episode-4-interview-with-des-traynor-co-founder-of-intercom\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Episode","item":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/podcast\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":3,"name":"Episode 4: Interview with Des Traynor, Co-founder of Intercom"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#website","url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/","name":"Canopy | Blog","description":"Thoughts on how to become a better leader, and avoid being a bad boss.","publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#organization"},"potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#organization","name":"Know Your Team","url":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/Artboard-1@2x.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/knowyourteam.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/Artboard-1@2x.png","width":1024,"height":1024,"caption":"Know Your Team"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/"},"sameAs":["https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/knowyourteamhq","https:\/\/twitter.com\/KnowYourTeamHQ","https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/knowyourteamhq\/","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/channel\/UCLmMSaIY8JfjiJnwYSfYeuA"]}]}},"rttpg_featured_image_url":{"full":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png",600,335,false],"landscape":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png",600,335,false],"portraits":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png",600,335,false],"thumbnail":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg-150x150.png",150,150,true],"medium":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg-300x168.png",300,168,true],"large":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png",600,335,false],"1536x1536":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png",600,335,false],"2048x2048":["https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/12\/bb575-1ykoejigqudhh3iikhjaxyg.png",600,335,false]},"rttpg_author":{"display_name":"Claire Lew","author_link":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/author\/claire\/"},"rttpg_comment":0,"rttpg_category":false,"rttpg_excerpt":"As the founder of a 300+ software company, Des talks about the silence cost to being nice, the pitfalls of transparency as a leader, and the power of consistency. Claire Lew:\u00a0Hi everyone, I\u2019m\u00a0Claire\u00a0and I\u2019m the CEO of Canopy (formerly Know Your Team\/Know Your Company). I\u2019m really excited today to have a special guest with me,\u00a0Des&hellip;&hellip;","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/1454"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1454"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/629"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1454"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1454"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/canopy.is\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=1454"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}